Arks thread of tough love and abuse #12 burst skills

[Ark]

there are a few skills in game that I don't like how the mechanics work, this is because often we only have certain ways to balance skills vs their benefit. should it cost 1 life point? have a charge up? what if the benefit is tiny? what if its to big?

so I came up with this concept a long time ago, but never posted it because of certain reasons I wont go into here, but here it is.

Burst : burst skills cost 1 life point and enable the skills effect for 10 seconds, disenchant (or banish maybe for some odd reason) knocks you out of the effect, spending additional life re activates the effect.

but Ark?! this concept is already in game in the form of Flee and heroic stand! indeed it is I reply, but its concept can be taken further to make many more interesting skills that allow for much more interesting play/counterplay.

here is a list of skills and effects converted to the Burst system, and I feel they would benefit from it.

-Rage: spend 1 life point to increase your base damage by 1 for 10 seconds.
-Vorpal: spend 1 life point to add the call "vorpal" to your base damage for 10 seconds. (does not stack with crush)
-Crush: spend 1 life point to add the call "crush" to your base damage for 10 seconds. (does not stack with vorpal)

those are the ones I don't like and feel the burst system would apply to very well, other ideas and skill concepts include. (rough draft so be kind)

-Stand behind me: spend 1 life point to be immune to all frontal damage for 10 seconds (reverse flee in concept, still able to move though unlike heroic stand. . .allowing damage is iffy so comments would be welcome)
-various other weapon related bonuses: Barbarian Fear, Assassin Poison, etc.
-possible lesser resists: poison, disease, etc.
-Elemental form master spell: spend 1 life point to gain 6 armor and swing 2 magic with claws (I like the idea of getting to a caster and they explode into a monster right in your face)

general concept and design ideas, constructive criticism welcome.

reasons and precedents in the FH system in relation to burst skills:
-10 second duration: most short duration effect skills last 10 seconds, slick, root, fear, etc.
-1 life point cost: obvious, a lot of skills require a life point to use.

reasons for the inclusion of a burst mechanic:
-well it already does exist in some skills its just not labeled as such, however reasons would include doing away with other clunky mechanics (such as the skills rage, vorpal, and crush.) as well as giving another choice for balancing skills, not worth a life point cost? what if it was 10 seconds per life point cost?

reasons why 10 seconds:
-its the universal base for FH skills and effects (especially once rogue gets fixed to 10=4, 20=8, 30=12) no need to break from standard, and bringing everything in line with one another is a GREAT thing.

[Phinkis]

Heroic Stand is not a burst skill. You spend 1 LP to enter Heroic Stand and become immune to all calls. You loose one HP every 10 seconds until you have 1 HP left . Then, and only then, does the effect end. You can not end it early. So, say you have 6 LP. You spend 1 LP to go into heroic stand. You then loose one LP every 10 seconds. After 40 seconds you loose 4 more LP leaving you with 1 LP, at which point the effect ends. This is why Phinkis spends a lot of time just standing in the middle of the battle. I actually really like the way this spell works. It would be far too powerful if it were a burst skill.

Now for Rage, Vorpal and Crush. First, these skills all have disadvantages currently. You did not include them and I'm not sure if that was intentional or if you didn't think that typing them out was necessary. Also, adding another count while engaged in combat is not simpler for many people. Other than that, as long as they keep their disadvantages, I don't see a problem.

Stand Behind Me, does it prevent damage and effects? If it's just damage it wouldn't be too bad but I'd say no swinging damage. Of course at that point it just becomes a more powerful Defensive Matrix.
Not sure how burst fear would work. Do you just call fear for 10 seconds? Poison, I feel the same as I do about Rage, Crush and Vorpal.
Resists I'm torn here. It will make basic resists way more powerful and they're already not weak. On the flip side it would make immunities less needed.
Elemental Master is a neat idea gaining 6 armor every 10 seconds might be over powered. Seems all around better than the other transmutations, which isn't saying much since they mostly suck. Would need some down sides, especially since the other transmutations are potions and you can only do them as many times as you have potions.

Over all I don't think it's a needed change but it's fun to theorize and stuff!

[Ark]

you are correct on heroic stand, the only connection I made was the life point per 10 seconds.

as for rage, vorpal, and crush. if they were burst skills they would not need the downside, making them costly in a different way to use but not nearly as complicated.

Stand behind me compared to defensive matrix, one is a stance while one is a burst skill, I am not sure about damage or effects at this time as it was just a concept, it can be tweaked as needed.
Same with Fear and Poison, just kind of threw them out there
perhaps instead of resist, immunity, as far as stacking goes it could go, resists, burst resist, immunity. once again an idea that could be completely unwarranted but just throwing it out there.
Elemental Form was another fast idea, but it does have its own pros and cons compared to transmutations, it requires a constant cost and does not last as long, however it is activated fast and can be shut off rather fast allowing for more flexibility.

As for another number people need to track, 10 seconds is easy enough to keep track of, and when running tests with a couple of players (multiple fights of 4-5 players with various builds and scenarios) the data we got back points to the fact that people were ending the bursts to soon (around 7-8 seconds rather then the full 10) a lot of skills have an effect duration of 10 seconds, including but not limited to Slick, Root, and Fear.
As far as my examples with Rage, Crush, and Vorpal. not only did this make the skills less complex to use (you have to keep track of what your taking and what you can and cannot use) but they truly lived up to the burst name, testers would fight passively then get a bit more aggressive when they used a burst because they only had 10 seconds to do damage, this created a pretty cool scene.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

Burst : burst skills cost 1 life point and enable the skills effect for 10 seconds, disenchant (or banish maybe for some odd reason) knocks you out of the effect, spending additional life re activates the effect.

While some new spell/skill concepts might work nicely under a 1 LP for 10 second duration like a few current ones do, I dont see any reason to have an added drawback that disenchant removes the effect.

counterplay.

stop making up phrases...what the heck is counterplay?

-Rage: spend 1 life point to increase your base damage by 1 for 10 seconds.
-Vorpal: spend 1 life point to add the call "vorpal" to your base damage for 10 seconds. (does not stack with crush)
-Crush: spend 1 life point to add the call "crush" to your base damage for 10 seconds. (does not stack with vorpal)

How in blazes would ANY of these benefit from shortening them from combat duration to 10 seconds for the same cost?!?!?!

-Stand behind me: spend 1 life point to be immune to all frontal damage for 10 seconds (reverse flee in concept, still able to move though unlike heroic stand. . .allowing damage is iffy so comments would be welcome)

skill variation already in use...see hold ground

-various other weapon related bonuses: Barbarian Fear, Assassin Poison, etc.

Why change them from what they are?

-possible lesser resists: poison, disease, etc.

I see potential in upgrading these from resist for 1 LP to 10 sec immune for 2 LP

-Elemental form master spell: spend 1 life point to gain 6 armor and swing 2 magic with claws (I like the idea of getting to a caster and they explode into a monster right in your face)

See free the beast potion...

reasons for the inclusion of a burst mechanic:
reasons would include doing away with other clunky mechanics (such as the skills rage, vorpal, and crush.)

Except that they aren't clunky....in fact they are fairly simple

as well as giving another choice for balancing skills, not worth a life point cost?

except there isn't a single skill on your list that isn't worth 1 LP to activate.

reasons why 10 seconds:
-its the universal base for FH skills and effects (especially once rogue gets fixed to 10=4, 20=8, 30=12) no need to break from standard, and bringing everything in line with one another is a GREAT thing.

Well...except its NOT a universal base ...which is obviated by the combat/scene durations and the until used durations.

as for rage, vorpal, and crush. if they were burst skills they would not need the downside, making them costly in a different way to use but not nearly as complicated.

It would also make then nearly useless compared to how they currently function
They are also not complicated at all. Not even a little bit.

Stand behind me compared to defensive matrix, one is a stance while one is a burst skill,

What the heck is a stance. Are you making stuff up again?

(you have to keep track of what your taking and what you can and cannot use)

I am not sure why your touting this as complicated. I have seen 14 year olds play more intricate systems with ACTUAL complicated skills and have no issue. The mechanic your talking about is 2+2=4 easy.

[Ark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

good 5 min video of counterplay. that channel actually has some pretty good design fundaments on it, I have only seen a few and pretty much already knew it, but trying to find a good example of counterplay was harder then I thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw - power creep, does not really get useful till they talk about incomparables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w - perfect imbalance (FH already does this to an extent with the way warrior, rogue, empath wheel turns, I just think it needs to be tweaked a little.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3wc - balancing for skill


how does it work in relation to burst skills? fairly easy:
if you have a burst your trying to find the opportune moment to use it, on the other hand your opponent might try to lure you into using it then simply avoid combat by blocking, running away, or activating a defensive burst/stance (I will elaborate later) this creates a more thoughtful combat experience rather then turn on skill, swing till dead.

in fact maybe a few different costs should be used, I like the idea of a 10 second duration with a maybe a 10 second reload, so it becomes a less costly but more thoughtful decision on the users side, and allows for more counterplay on the receivers end (examples I gave above) for skills like rage, crush, and vorpal.

as far as a stance goes, that might be just what I refer to them as, anything you activate and continues to be active till you choose to shut it off is a stance in my eyes. and usually multiple stances cannot be active at the same time. and yes rage, crush, and vorpal are annoying, to people like you and I its not hard, however to this day people still forget they cannot parry whilst raging.

and stand behind me is different then hold ground and defensive matrix, working under the rules of you are immune to all damage and calls to the front, but can swing no damage
defensive matrix = best to use vs weak monsters to stall possibly indefinitely
Hold ground = best to use vs tough monsters you need to deal damage to, but a hefty downside of no mobility (super important in the ever changing battlefield) and unavoidable negatives (win or loose your at -1)
stand behind me = best to use vs tough monsters or surprise attacks you simply need to tank some damage for a bit.

however, I just though up another skill concept under the lines of dive for cover.
probable warrior skill, when a game stop is called a warrior could choose to move to the front of the effect and take full damage, however all damage of the call is halved (rounded up) after it hits the warrior. the concept being you throw yourself in the line of fire to reduce the damage done to your allies. I do not yet know or think if this would stack on itself (multiple warriors reducing an attack of the elements or what not)

once again, another skill design concept.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

if you have a burst your trying to find the opportune moment to use it,

I still dont see the upside to how things work now...

in fact maybe a few different costs should be used, I like the idea of a 10 second duration with a maybe a 10 second reload, so it becomes a less costly but more thoughtful decision on the users side, and allows for more counterplay on the receivers end (examples I gave above) for skills like rage, crush, and vorpal.

Right because none of that sounds klunky or complicated...at all...

however to this day people still forget they cannot parry whilst raging.

Thats more about the average 8 week gap between events that happen 5 or 6 times a year, and players that participate in several systems. If it were a once a month game like NERO, or players only attended FH you wouldn't see that

probable warrior skill, when a game stop is called a warrior could choose to move to the front of the effect and take full damage, however all damage of the call is halved (rounded up) after it hits the warrior. the concept being you throw yourself in the line of fire to reduce the damage done to your allies. I do not yet know or think if this would stack on itself (multiple warriors reducing an attack of the elements or what not)

I like the core concept, but this is what I would call clunky. what if the warrior is that last person in the line of 20 PCS....how do you explain a move of 40+feet. Even dive for cover is 10 to 15 feet at best.
Would be an interesting swap out skill if a shield toting warrior could take the brunt and take full effect and protect anyone behind him.

[Joe]

i would like to add that winterhaven uses the same rules as finalhaven and players that play at one dont usually have any trouble switching to the other because they are essentially the same game just different locations

[Ark]

it may not be an obvious upside, just different, a power shift sideways not up. as it stand now the effect of rage changes depending on what weapons or other skills you have, the burst would not. also rage limits what skills you can use with it, the burst would not. vorpal and crush both change what kind of damage you do and take, and there have been many in the past that have tried to cheese this downside (if I take crush then SotD negates crush so HA!) by using other effects in game.

however the MAIN point behind converting to burst skill, is that it makes it a thoughtful decision and more interesting for both sides involved, you have to find an opportune moment to use your skill to the best effect, and your opponent can try and run or negate your moment with their own skills or abilities. as it stands now you turn it on and swing till you drop. and I don't think a 10 second duration with a 10 second reload is more complicated then changing what skills you can and cannot use as well as the damage you take.

and I agree on the dive for protection skill, very clunky design but I think a concept is there, perhaps you have to be in the aoe of the spell? the warrior should be near the front anyway. . .I don't know but I agree with you that a like the concept of a shield toting warrior jumping to the front to shield there allies.

btw how do you feel about a 10 second reload on press? to prevent press spam (I don't press NPC's that can press because they just win, period) if it had a reload on it once again it becomes more thoughtful, do you counter an NPC press? or do you wait to make a press of your own? at that point I would remove the life point cost.