I would like to predicate this post with the following: I initially hesitated to post this here. I wanted to talk to GM staff first. I sent them this idea about a week and a half ago, with the hopes they would look over it. But, since Travis asked, I will post it here as well.
As many of you know, I am greatly frustrated with the changes to alchemy (now the Wizard Path and Arcanist discipline). Now that I have played it for a year, I have discovered some flaws that are very frustrating from a player point of view.
First, one of the things that drew me to alchemy as a discipline in the first place was the variety. Because the in game use of these skills is so limited (even with the investment of almost a gold every event), I can only use my discipline skills 17 times during the event. The balance of this, before the rules change, was that I could make any variety of potions (or an arcane could cast one of a variety of spells). With the way these disciplines have changed, I can still only use my skills 17 times, but can not choose which ones to use. This is very evident, if you look in my potion bag. I have lots of only one kind of potion, but nothing else. I think I (along with the help of some others) may have come up with a compromise that just might work.
The mechanics of potions and spells (for both Wizard and arcanist) works the same way. Brewing potions happens between games and during the game with the use of a lab. Casting spells works the same way. However, the spells/potions available to the wizard or arcanist are slightly different.
Instead of choosing a set of spells/potions to fill the path or discipline when you learn the skills, those become “slots,” for lack of a better word, for that character. This would work much like a spell caster in D & D. They have all of the spells/potions (of their level) available to choose from; except when they check into an event, they must choose which ones they “know” for the weekend. This is all they are able to cast/brew for the event. No changes are allowed. A master Wizard would be able to “know” four basic, four advanced, and four master potions and/or spells each event. A fourth level arcanist would “know” two basic, one advanced, and one master potion and/or spell each event. The potions or spells they know each event could change each event, but only between events, not during an event.
(It was suggested to me to require the player to determine whether that “slot” is dedicated to a potion or spell at time of purchase. This would reduce the chance of too much variety.)
For example: Fionna has four levels of the arcanist discipline. This means she can brew two basic potion types, one advanced potion type, and one master potion type. At the first event, I check in and decide I want to brew Cure 2, Strength of the Defender, Cure 4, and Skill Mastery. This is all I can brew during this event. While still at check in, I receive 4 Cure 2’s, 2 Strength of the Defender’s, 2 Cure 4’s, and 1 Skill Mastery. At the next event, I check in and decide I want to brew Toughen Skin, Powerful Body, Strength of the Body, and Fortify the Dead. These are the only potions I can brew for the event.
Wizard/Arcanist Idea
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Wizard/Arcanist Idea
Fionna MacNeil
Queen of the People of Haven
“We all at certain times in our lives find ourselves broken. True strength is found in picking up the pieces.”
Queen of the People of Haven
“We all at certain times in our lives find ourselves broken. True strength is found in picking up the pieces.”
I think its better than the current by far. However I still think that changing it from its original MO lessened the discipline. This applies to both alchamist and arcane/arcanist.
I cant see a reason to stray from the historical archetype of a crafter/caster that gathered spells/potion recepies and recorded them in tomes for use as the circumstances required. Hell, thats what the alchemist should be all about particularly.
It wasnt broken, so why fix it.
The structure the wizard/alchemist/arcanist uses now is more inline with how a rune carver/caster would operate.
I cant see a reason to stray from the historical archetype of a crafter/caster that gathered spells/potion recepies and recorded them in tomes for use as the circumstances required. Hell, thats what the alchemist should be all about particularly.
It wasnt broken, so why fix it.
The structure the wizard/alchemist/arcanist uses now is more inline with how a rune carver/caster would operate.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
Conceptually and mechanically I think it is a good system.
But personally I do not feel that it fits the FH system in realtion to any other Path.
While we all want our characters to be as versatile as possible, the system is really designed for a character to be very good at one thing, and if you need to do something else then you get help.
Yes by having limited selections to potions and spells, you as one character are limited to those, so if you need another potion you go and find a Wizard who has chosen that potion. Thereby giving players a reason to talk to other players, reasons to pick up various potions or spells that may have value in the game.
In a game where characters are limited in there selection of skills and abilites by the system, any part of that system that allows flexability becomes potentially more powerful.
Again I think what you have here is very well thought out but would not be for it in this system.
Of course that is just my personal opinion.
But personally I do not feel that it fits the FH system in realtion to any other Path.
While we all want our characters to be as versatile as possible, the system is really designed for a character to be very good at one thing, and if you need to do something else then you get help.
Yes by having limited selections to potions and spells, you as one character are limited to those, so if you need another potion you go and find a Wizard who has chosen that potion. Thereby giving players a reason to talk to other players, reasons to pick up various potions or spells that may have value in the game.
In a game where characters are limited in there selection of skills and abilites by the system, any part of that system that allows flexability becomes potentially more powerful.
Again I think what you have here is very well thought out but would not be for it in this system.
Of course that is just my personal opinion.
Hi.. I'm Aidan!
I think Phil brought up some good points about how FH works and why alchemy and wizards were changed.
Conceptually, we wanted to mechanically line the alchemist and arcane up with the rest of the game. On the flip side I have always liked the idea of ritual and sacrifice in order to accomplish other types of things.
So, even though mechanically the wizard and alchemist is the same we were going to have this kind of different philosophy toward magic items. Some of these magic items would require a certain level of alchemy/arcane in order to use, and they would integrate with the lore in some way for added depth. I do not know if this has been going on or not, but it should have been.
This way as you play FH you slowly start to accumulate one of a kind artifacts that set you apart from other characters. This would be in line with how alot of movies and lore works, and I thought would give a neat feel to the game—see old man with green healing gem.
For example, and ancient An Dar comes into the event with alot of different powers. I was actually surprised no one started to ask him about his secrets, though he would not have given any for now. I also brought in an Arcane which only resulted in being knocked out, and he had a few goodies.....
If the above system was implemented, then I believe the magic item idea would need to be changed. I would create magic items that were favored by other classes more so than wizards by specifically saying "you must be a master warrior to use this item" in order to give the other paths equal diversity to the wizard/alchemist.
So in the end you should talk about where you want your diversity to come from? Would you like your diversity to come from a book or through exploration and research? Do you feel items found should be weighted toward wizard/alchemist or other classes? How does this affect the lore and feel of the world? I should note the reason for the artifacts instead of say a formula, was to stop the inevitability of everyone having every formula in the game. With an item tied to a new formula then you insure it can only be used by 1 person at a time.
Lastly, in the next version of the book should we go to a skill based system (gurps) or stay a hybrid class system like old school Warhammer?
Conceptually, we wanted to mechanically line the alchemist and arcane up with the rest of the game. On the flip side I have always liked the idea of ritual and sacrifice in order to accomplish other types of things.
So, even though mechanically the wizard and alchemist is the same we were going to have this kind of different philosophy toward magic items. Some of these magic items would require a certain level of alchemy/arcane in order to use, and they would integrate with the lore in some way for added depth. I do not know if this has been going on or not, but it should have been.
This way as you play FH you slowly start to accumulate one of a kind artifacts that set you apart from other characters. This would be in line with how alot of movies and lore works, and I thought would give a neat feel to the game—see old man with green healing gem.
For example, and ancient An Dar comes into the event with alot of different powers. I was actually surprised no one started to ask him about his secrets, though he would not have given any for now. I also brought in an Arcane which only resulted in being knocked out, and he had a few goodies.....
If the above system was implemented, then I believe the magic item idea would need to be changed. I would create magic items that were favored by other classes more so than wizards by specifically saying "you must be a master warrior to use this item" in order to give the other paths equal diversity to the wizard/alchemist.
So in the end you should talk about where you want your diversity to come from? Would you like your diversity to come from a book or through exploration and research? Do you feel items found should be weighted toward wizard/alchemist or other classes? How does this affect the lore and feel of the world? I should note the reason for the artifacts instead of say a formula, was to stop the inevitability of everyone having every formula in the game. With an item tied to a new formula then you insure it can only be used by 1 person at a time.
Lastly, in the next version of the book should we go to a skill based system (gurps) or stay a hybrid class system like old school Warhammer?
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Almost every magical item at FH seems grossly overpowered. And I know about a lot of them. A dagger that provides 3 Hero Points, a sword that gives the user the Disarm skill with no armor restriction, a mask that grants resist magic, a dagger that grants the interogate skill and stacks with the skill to allow you to INSTANTLY interrogate a target. Do you know what that means? I can hit you with a dagger and drop you to 0 and implant a suggestion.
Some if these items have upkeep...some don't. That's the problem. Either the upkeep is too low or non existant. These are just a few of the items I know about.
At WH it's the opposite end of the spectrum. I was granted 2 items that had very high upkeep, were very dificult to identify, and had significant drawbacks. They were almost unusable unless your build was very specific.
Best items I have seen work like this. They are charged, no more than 3 charges. They cost magical components to recharge. The ability is defensive or utilitarian.
As far as potions/spells, I like the idea of using exploration and roleplay to gain new abilities. I came up with an idea that I'll post later that mixes the idea of magic items with exploration and learning. It does not grant new abilities but modifies the ones you already have.
Much like in real life the more you do something the better you get at it. This new addition will allow people to do that.
Some if these items have upkeep...some don't. That's the problem. Either the upkeep is too low or non existant. These are just a few of the items I know about.
At WH it's the opposite end of the spectrum. I was granted 2 items that had very high upkeep, were very dificult to identify, and had significant drawbacks. They were almost unusable unless your build was very specific.
Best items I have seen work like this. They are charged, no more than 3 charges. They cost magical components to recharge. The ability is defensive or utilitarian.
As far as potions/spells, I like the idea of using exploration and roleplay to gain new abilities. I came up with an idea that I'll post later that mixes the idea of magic items with exploration and learning. It does not grant new abilities but modifies the ones you already have.
Much like in real life the more you do something the better you get at it. This new addition will allow people to do that.
We also had to restrict spells and potions to a known list. To many secret spells and potions made them impossible to track
I swapped to wizard from empath because the path let me be an arcane alchemy power house in way the old duspkibes never could
I love having spells mixed with potions to back them up.
Of course I swung both ways and limit potions did mean anything.
I swapped to wizard from empath because the path let me be an arcane alchemy power house in way the old duspkibes never could
I love having spells mixed with potions to back them up.
Of course I swung both ways and limit potions did mean anything.
Travis Cole
Why are there magic item tags leaving NPC camp with nothing written in the upkeep section? Some are plot items...Upkeep was never thought about. Some have been transferred from player to player with no knowledge given about the items upkeep status. The new owner has no idea if it is or isn't supposed to have an upkeep.
Alchemy's short stick
I had some big long posts explaining why I thought that Alchemy was getting the short end of the stick, but they distracted from the suggestions, so if the reasoning behind them needs to be posted, I can (and still might), but here's some ideas I had to help Alchemy still be a bit more malleable, while still not unbalancing the rest of the Paths too terribly and not messing with the current rules too much (just some add-ons to the current rules, really.)
• Check-In potions are the same, but an Alchemy Lab allows a wizard to brew only what he knows, OR for an additional cost at check-in (or at time of brewing, say Mystic, or the likes), he can brew other potions he has the recipe for in the manner he would normally (Can only brew potions of the same levels, and if there are still brewing times with an Alchemy lab, that would have to be followed too.)
• And/or, potions can be unlearned and re-learned like Path skills can. (At check-in, you say that you are not going to take your X-potion, and will learn to make Y-potion for the next event, meaning you must go one full event without having made X-potion.) This way a potion may not be made immediately available at an event, but at least a "hole" in the alchemy pool can be filled by someone willing to take up the new potion. Perhaps, similarly, Spells could be handled the same way? If not, a Potion slot could only be replaced by a same-level potion?
I mean, obviously I can live with the current rules and take what potions I chose months/years ago, but it just seems a bit forced mechanically to be confined to just those for the life of the character.
All of the other Path abilities allow a character to do their thing as many times an event as they want (Spells have cool-down, but that's it), while (currently) Alchemy is basically one-shot-and-done with a limited quantity of physical objects that can be stolen/lost/etc. Sure, they can be sold, but so can the services of a Warrior/Rogue/Sage, etc.[/b][/i]
• Check-In potions are the same, but an Alchemy Lab allows a wizard to brew only what he knows, OR for an additional cost at check-in (or at time of brewing, say Mystic, or the likes), he can brew other potions he has the recipe for in the manner he would normally (Can only brew potions of the same levels, and if there are still brewing times with an Alchemy lab, that would have to be followed too.)
• And/or, potions can be unlearned and re-learned like Path skills can. (At check-in, you say that you are not going to take your X-potion, and will learn to make Y-potion for the next event, meaning you must go one full event without having made X-potion.) This way a potion may not be made immediately available at an event, but at least a "hole" in the alchemy pool can be filled by someone willing to take up the new potion. Perhaps, similarly, Spells could be handled the same way? If not, a Potion slot could only be replaced by a same-level potion?
I mean, obviously I can live with the current rules and take what potions I chose months/years ago, but it just seems a bit forced mechanically to be confined to just those for the life of the character.
All of the other Path abilities allow a character to do their thing as many times an event as they want (Spells have cool-down, but that's it), while (currently) Alchemy is basically one-shot-and-done with a limited quantity of physical objects that can be stolen/lost/etc. Sure, they can be sold, but so can the services of a Warrior/Rogue/Sage, etc.[/b][/i]
Arthur Dreese - West Michigan
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
Ohh boy, I have a lot to say on this subject. I have been informed that I'm in the minority of the way I like to do things so I'm not expecting a change, but my voice to be heard.
I was there when Travis and Danni were discussing this. I brought up the D&D wizard bit. I would like to see the Alchemist in some way have a book. It doesn't need to be a tagged item or in game item, but still a formal list. The alchemist "Book" of list of potions by far is not a master list. Just as it is now, it's the list of potions they are able to brew. As stated in the above post, at check in the player needs to choose and declare which potions they will limit themselves to brew for the event. The difference is that the book they have IS NOT a master list. Maybe it only has one or two potions they can swap out. So like the D&D Wizard, they don't have a master list, and they won't be able to memorize all their spells(potions) for that day(event).
As I see this has been shot down by 2 GMs already, I don't expect much. I WOULD like to voice some complaints I have about the new changes though. Again, I understand I'm in the minority of what I like out of this game, so I don't expect much.
First off, you have to know that my character was a alchemist pre-rule changes, so that's what I continue to play her as - an Alchemist. All potions, no spells.
I VERY much so dislike the new ordeal of at game on, sitting down for 2 hours - or really just placing your tag on a table next to a bottle for two hours, walking away and having ALL your potions done FOR THE ENTIRE EVENT.
When I first started playing, the gathering of herbs and ingredients by alchemists was some sort of orchestrated event. You gathered the Alchemists that needed to go out and get their stuff and then you got some warriors to escort them. We walked the paths for 15+ minutes, every once in a while stopping and foraging in the weeds. Our group was put in real danger of meeting a wandering monster. You could almost consider this a player driven (or rule driven) plot - find the ingredients!
- But Angie, you can still do this, it's called ROLE PLAYING!
Well, kinda. People are less likely to travel with you, escort you, whatever into danger if there isn't a driving reason. I would like this to happen, but honestly, I don't see it. Besides, for role play, I anticipate hearing, "Oh, you can just use some of mine." Also, I heard that the gathering of ingredients got the axe because people were looking for and gathering their ingredients in the corner of the tavern or inn. I was appalled to hear this! - Much in the way that people are carrying multiple suits of armor and changing them out in combat if the original suit was damaged, as an example.
So now that I've finished doing all I can do with my fancy uber Alchemy lab in the first two hours of the game, now what?
Between events I had a GM inform me that I could sell it (the tag) for another alchemist to use - even though the rules specifically state that you can't. I was told that the rule book was wrong. I told them since I've seen no official forum postings for a rule change on the subject, I considered what they said a field call and would continue to follow the rule book. Besides, every other alchemist I don't think was pulled aside and told not to follow the rule book. Can we PLEASE get an official ruling on this?
What about stealing an Alchemy lab?
As of right now, I don't think it's possible. I suppose if I haven't had my lab stamped saying I've created my potions, it might be worth something. But as far as I know, alchemists again, have all their potions brewed in the first 2 hours of the game. So unless there's an official ruling about the above, it would be worthless to steal someone's lab after they've "consumed" it. It takes a full minute to destroy a lab, but all you have to do to steal it is to swipe the tag.
Also, why would anyone ever purchase a new lab if they had one destroyed in game? The new one will yield no potions, so what's the point?
There may be more later, but that's all I can think for now.
I was there when Travis and Danni were discussing this. I brought up the D&D wizard bit. I would like to see the Alchemist in some way have a book. It doesn't need to be a tagged item or in game item, but still a formal list. The alchemist "Book" of list of potions by far is not a master list. Just as it is now, it's the list of potions they are able to brew. As stated in the above post, at check in the player needs to choose and declare which potions they will limit themselves to brew for the event. The difference is that the book they have IS NOT a master list. Maybe it only has one or two potions they can swap out. So like the D&D Wizard, they don't have a master list, and they won't be able to memorize all their spells(potions) for that day(event).
As I see this has been shot down by 2 GMs already, I don't expect much. I WOULD like to voice some complaints I have about the new changes though. Again, I understand I'm in the minority of what I like out of this game, so I don't expect much.
First off, you have to know that my character was a alchemist pre-rule changes, so that's what I continue to play her as - an Alchemist. All potions, no spells.
I VERY much so dislike the new ordeal of at game on, sitting down for 2 hours - or really just placing your tag on a table next to a bottle for two hours, walking away and having ALL your potions done FOR THE ENTIRE EVENT.
When I first started playing, the gathering of herbs and ingredients by alchemists was some sort of orchestrated event. You gathered the Alchemists that needed to go out and get their stuff and then you got some warriors to escort them. We walked the paths for 15+ minutes, every once in a while stopping and foraging in the weeds. Our group was put in real danger of meeting a wandering monster. You could almost consider this a player driven (or rule driven) plot - find the ingredients!
- But Angie, you can still do this, it's called ROLE PLAYING!
Well, kinda. People are less likely to travel with you, escort you, whatever into danger if there isn't a driving reason. I would like this to happen, but honestly, I don't see it. Besides, for role play, I anticipate hearing, "Oh, you can just use some of mine." Also, I heard that the gathering of ingredients got the axe because people were looking for and gathering their ingredients in the corner of the tavern or inn. I was appalled to hear this! - Much in the way that people are carrying multiple suits of armor and changing them out in combat if the original suit was damaged, as an example.
So now that I've finished doing all I can do with my fancy uber Alchemy lab in the first two hours of the game, now what?
Between events I had a GM inform me that I could sell it (the tag) for another alchemist to use - even though the rules specifically state that you can't. I was told that the rule book was wrong. I told them since I've seen no official forum postings for a rule change on the subject, I considered what they said a field call and would continue to follow the rule book. Besides, every other alchemist I don't think was pulled aside and told not to follow the rule book. Can we PLEASE get an official ruling on this?
What about stealing an Alchemy lab?
As of right now, I don't think it's possible. I suppose if I haven't had my lab stamped saying I've created my potions, it might be worth something. But as far as I know, alchemists again, have all their potions brewed in the first 2 hours of the game. So unless there's an official ruling about the above, it would be worthless to steal someone's lab after they've "consumed" it. It takes a full minute to destroy a lab, but all you have to do to steal it is to swipe the tag.
Also, why would anyone ever purchase a new lab if they had one destroyed in game? The new one will yield no potions, so what's the point?
There may be more later, but that's all I can think for now.