FH Combat

[Jaycen Blackhawk]

I generally like any combat as long as there is a reason for it. I'm not a huge fan of "random monster so people can whack things". I guess I feel that every NPC should have a motivation.

I have to agree with Angie just a bit, I think every encounter should have multiple methods of resolution, hitting it with a sword being the easiest to decided on.

When combat is the option I prefer any fight that requires skill over numbers and mechanics. I want to win or lose based on how smart I fought, not because special skills were used or bigger numbers called.

[Rhul]

I agree with Chris- the undead fight at the keep was one of the most "in-game" feeling situations I have experienced this year, where the feeling just got better the more we were able to pull together. Being able to burn the bodies by using some impromptu "flint and tinder" made me feel completely in the moment, helped by some great NPC direction. Having to physically gather pine needles for fuel= awesome.

As for random monsters, like I said, every once in awhile I like to see a suprise raid to keep us on our toes (it's a wild world after all, especially outside of Haven), but other than that I'd like to see more monsters attacking the town only to keep escaping to fight another time, with the only way to resolve the situation being for us to go deal with them.

[celegar]

oh i wouldnt say we neccisarily dont ever want target dummies, at least us fighters dont. as players we subconsiously anylize every fight we come across, but as brutish characters we have to actively try to not do that, so target dummie monsters make that easier for us, since we dont have to think, true that it doesnt exactly make for exemlplar talky talky roleplay but rp isnt all about chating it up with every npc you come across, sometimes its good to justgo in hammer first, and i know id like to have more of those kind of encounters since i didnt see hardly any at the last event, situations where the barbarians of the town can actually do some barbarianing without being lead around by the collar by townspeople who do the talky talkying to fights that we knew nothing about.

Wait, you can always just go and attack something if you wanna play the hammer first barbarian. Sure you might attack something that's gonna kill you but those are the choices each character makes. Whether the NPC's are squishies shouldn't matter. And how can you say you want "ego pumping" monsters and then turn around and bag on power gamers.

Angie I know where you're coming from but sometimes there just aren't any other options than fighting or running away.

Why do people think sages are weak? Sage can be arguably the second best combat class, ask Aaron how you can tweak a sage for combat.

im just trying to establish that not every monster needs to come into town and parley before it decides to fight or not, sometimes chrushing things is its own motivation, but yes there needs to be some kind of motivation. it would be completely pointless to send in naught but the crushhy monsters becasue it would leave people out of the interaction(fighting is a kind of interaction) and it would be equally pointless to have all talky talky npc's because that too would leave players out, what im preaching about is balence, mix it up once and a while, that way everyone gets involved and feels like they have contributed.

and while i am most definitely a hammer first barbarian, im not that into fighting at larps, i can do that at dagorhir, i do the larps for the environment and rp, even if the roleplay is being a big tough fighter, its the ego high that i go for. heck, id have a good time just sitting round the fire with the other barbarians for a whole event.

[GM-Mike]

You know we have had events where the majority of encounters were taken care of with diplomacy or talky talky or sneaky sneaky. We were told afterwards the event was boring...

So I guess I am agreeing that a balance is needed. Finding that balance is tricky to say the least.

[Zydana]

encounters were taken care of with diplomacy or talky talky or sneaky sneaky. We were told afterwards the event was boring...

I can see where the event could be boring if only a select few were the only ones being talky talky and sneaky sneaky. This is of course by no means the fault of any GM or NPC. I would though like to point out that the talky talky stuff should not only be limited to well established characters or players that have been around for years and years. When NPC after NPC comes in demanding to see the leader of town, it can get kinda old if you're not the leader of town. However, players need to take the initiative to be known to the NPCs in the area if they wish to play a more active role in the not beating-things-with-sticks thing.

Perhaps I've gotten a bit off topic.

I would like to see some more witty fighting too. I'm reminded of the sword fighting in Monkey Island...

"You fight like a dairy farmer."
"How appropriate. You fight like a cow."


"I got this scar on my face during a mighty struggle!"
"I hope now you've learned to stop picking your nose."

[GM-Taki]

When NPC after NPC comes in demanding to see the leader of town, it can get kinda old if you're not the leader of town.

For the record, it also gets old if you are the leader of the town. Even more so if you've gone to the trouble of NOT being the leader of the town only to have the leader gone all the time and find that all the NPC's come to you anyway, but I digress...

I've had generally good experiences with combat in this game, and I've seen both players and NPC's alike go out of their way to roll with interesting ideas.

Even so, there's often an inherent conflict between the fighters and non-fighters when it comes to resolving issues. Many of the non-fighters are going to be looking for neat ways to resolve issues without fighting, but if they're successful the fighters sit on their hands. The fighters, meanwhile, are usually looking for some action and just wish the talkers would shut up so they could clobber something.

I've heard sages complain about their plots turning into fights when their escort got bored and I've seen the warriors sulking by the fire as the diplomats entered hour three of negotiations. As Mike said, it's all about balance - and while things may sway from event to event, the game as a whole has kept close to level.

There are a slew of good points in this thread, and I've seen creatures that fit all of the profiles discussed here - everything from deep, complex antagonists with a variety of resolution options to wave after wave of baddies with no obvious purpose higher than kicking our collective ass. It's been a mix, and it should stay that way.

One point that I do feel needs emphasis is the integration of new players. There's a rush associated with combat, and an even bigger rush connected with doing well in a fight. That rush can be a negative thing when pursued to the exclusion of all else (the rules, etc.), but it's also part of what makes live action so much fun. Lower-level or reactionary creatures have the benefit of being fun for veterans (who get to feel like a badass) and for new players alike.

Perhaps it's just a flaw in my observation, but as the game has progressed I've noticed that we've trended away from large numbers of weak creatures. I know that playing and re-popping 20 goblins is more exhausting than playing 4 trolls, and none of us are as young as we used to be, but the shift in dynamic is something to consider.

[Kalphoenix]

Warning: LONG, even for me. It's late, I'm behind schedule and I didn't go back and redraft, hopefully it doesn't sound too hard and I didn't say too many things more than once. (Heidi Writing - 2nd draft = 1st draft - 10% to 30%...scary, ain't it? )

You know we have had events where the majority of encounters were taken care of with diplomacy or talky talky or sneaky sneaky. We were told afterwards the event was boring...

So I guess I am agreeing that a balance is needed. Finding that balance is tricky to say the least.

And the problem is people being in the wrong place at the wrong time for the things they do, or do not enjoy, and be ABLE to balance it so that this:

Don't worry, if you want to fight, I'll provide you enough oppertuites.

Doesn't have to clash with:

While I understand that some people like beating on things, I enjoy the kind of 'monster' that you can talk to or bargain with. I don't like the baddies that come in swinging for no apparent reason other than just to give us something to fight.

And the people like me who are 100% in favor of their always being more than one option and was really impressed with the diplomacy and sneaky-sneaky apparently being able to be pulled off (I am not familiar with the details, obviously not things for general discussion, either). NOT fighting IS strategy too. Be Proactive! (You're going to be sick of that word by the end of this thread).

I was at a lot of events my second and third year where it seemed like non-stop combat. That wasn't fun for me, and really kind of sent me on a long negative streak. Don't get me wrong, they weren't "lost" years or anything, but there were other things going on that I probably would have enjoyed more. I missed out on them because I got "stuck" on the combat ones. I am willing to accept that a lot of that was the fault of the character I was playing at the time; who went and did a lot of things that I, as a player, wasn't particularly interested in because of her in-character motivations. BUT! I was able to work on the things I DID enjoy, and have a lot of AMAZING memories of the great things that happened IC because I was proactive about what I wanted and therefore made up for a lot of the things I DIDN'T like.

I also try to accept the fact that if I go somewhere outside of one of the buildings, I may be attacked, whether that be plot/player or something else. I really appreciate the fact that I am very rarely "forced" into combat.

I started on a big thought (Too big), but it kind of boils down to this: Final Haven/Winter Haven has always tried to take a "realistically based fantasy setting" approach, both through rules and interactions. Rule changes have frequently used this as an argument in rule adjustments citing "immersion" as a reason. When you have combat monsters merely for "fodder," that argument looses it's merit.

Most things do not want to die, or risk their lives for little or no reward. They are going to want to take an easier route same as the PCs do. Even non-living things such as golems and undead have motivations (Or the motivations of others guiding them) and cost time and effort to produce. I politely disagree with whomever said that "just for destruction" is a justifiable motive. In probably at least a minimum 95% of cases, creatures are going to have a justifiable reason (at least in their eyes) for looking for trouble, whether that is defending territory, hunger, a misunderstanding, banditry, kidnapping or whatever and probably at least 75% of those can be placated without someone having to die. I put that 5% in there, because something COULD be insane or malfunctioning, but that's going to be a minority. That still leaves a good 25% that probably have to be fought/defeated in combat.

Another thought to remember is that this isn't an MMO where you slaughter monsters for profit...sometimes monsters have things that PCs can utilize, but based on the written-in balance, only so much can go out. I LIKE that, because it gives players an incentive to look for other options. It's a balance, because even someone really attached to their PC doesn't necessarily have enough sense of preservation for the sake of their character to consider other options without a "push." Thus, it's not worth it to spend resources and risk character lives just to "kill" things for the "fun of it" if you aren't getting rewards to make up for the expense. While I understand that people like getting resources and treasure off kills, it's not that kind of game and it should be special when they do, even if it's "only" something like potions or a resource.

It's also not meant to truly be a "solo" game, in most cases UNLESS (Big unless here) you are willing to blow some time/resources to do it, you really shouldn't be able to one-on-one combat monsters, although hopefully you can find an option for escape, talking your way out of it or just plain running away. But if someone wants to burn those resources, they should be able to do it without an NPC suddenly feeling that they need to "ramp up" the difficulty because all of a sudden it "isn't fair" to you as an NPC. I'm sure it's just confusion and adrenaline, but I've called people on that, at WH and and FH, (examples, not necessarily a specific reference) such as suddenly going from swinging "1 vorpal poison" (Which can be parried) to vorpal poison (which can't).

Preparatory action is still teamwork and strategy, and I HAVE heard a lot of dissension about that OOC in the past too...that using potions, crafted items and suchnot is "cheese." Just because it's a different form of tactics doesn't mean it's not tactics, and I really hope things have been resolved, explained and realized in that department so that both players and staff are NOT looking at it this way anymore.

To add to that, if people with the resources help out, Staff gets the argument that the fights are "too easy," but if the aforementioned people stay out of it and let others fight because things are too "boring" otherwise, they get accused of not playing nice, at least IC, if not OOC. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If you feel your character would attack rather than talk, then you can do that, again, keeping in mind that your character will have to face those consequences, both from the NPCs and the other PCs who may not have wanted you to do it. It's the risk you take when playing a character, just as I learned during that seemingly long combat spree. Same as I'm sure characters who have been attacked for their actions have learned and accepted (And most who probably already knew their character might not live long). It was before my time, but I believe there is a case of a tribe of PC Orcs who eventually got killed off by the town for, well...being Orcs with Orcish behavior that was incompatible with the town's goals. I have since made adjustments in my character choices, in the hope that I can try to avoid things I don't enjoy taking up most of my time at a game and maximize the things I DO enjoy.

Angie makes a good and HUGE point though on being proactive and involved, both in-character and out-of-character. We've discussed it before. I will try to address a couple things here as examples and possible ideas on being PROACTIVE:

On the out-of-character side, if you somehow feel there isn't enough combat, you could always mosey over to NPC camp and either let the NPCs know that you are "looking for trouble" in a certain area (So you could be attacked, if there are folks available to do so - Staff can't just KNOW where you are, and it's not feasible for an NPC to just sit out in the woods for three hours waiting for someone to "happen" by when they could be running other things in the meantime), or in another scenario, you could volunteer to run a wandering monster for staff if you want to fight because you need the adrenaline rush or whatever. Don't sit around in one of the buildings all weekend and then whine because the action didn't come to you (Someone who said they were bored around two seasons ago did just that and I wanted to pull my hair out).

On the in-Character side, attack if you feel that is what your character would do. If you want to be involved in things, don't make an anti-social character who doesn't want to talk/work with others. If you feel you are being left out of NPC discussions, interact more with the other PCs and the NPCs. If your character wants to get into trouble, go looking for it.

In all cases, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, whether they turn out the way you wanted or not. Action and inaction both have consequences, IC and OOC. I feel that the Haven LARPs are VERY player driven, but as a result, you DO have to be proactive during the game and between about the things you want to do as a player. You can't always wait for things to come to you. You may get something (Oh, let's say a big elven army on your doorstep, for example) but it might not be what you want.

[Ark]

the only reason i wanted to npc was to be the wandering monster, i guess thats not fun to people but i dont mind getting killed over and over as long as its making people happy, maybe there should be 3 groups GM's who run the game and do plots, NPC's who help the GM's run the plots and WM's who play wandering monsters for that event, say its a blood moon event the GM's tell the WM's you need to be zombie oriented this event, no problem, to me its fun walking the paths playing a monster, and its fun to be a PC knowing there are monsters in the woods, adds some fear to the game

[celegar]

its true, the woods have been rather perfectly safe as of late.

[GM-Mike]

That all depends upon our NPC numbers of course. We have written wandering monster "agendas" each event to help coordinate things. It's basically organized wandering so that they can jump in on plots as well. When NPC numbers are down, though, that of course limits the number of wandering monsters we can have while still entertaining everyone not wandering in the woods (which is most of you)

[GM-Taki]

...It was before my time, but I believe there is a case of a tribe of PC Orcs who eventually got killed off by the town for, well...being Orcs with Orcish behavior that was incompatible with the town's goals.

Just for the record, the issue with the Orcs was that their culture was at odds with that of the town. Their system of conflict resolution and justice was unacceptable to the townspeople, just as the townspeople's laws were unacceptable to them. After a botched arbitration several townsfolk believed a war was inevitable and wanted to give the Orcs an ultimatum: either accept the laws, leave, or fight to the death. A couple of the townsfolk tipped the Orcs off and at first they ran, but a few other PC's eventually brought them back in and a meeting was held. Nothing was solved, and in the end the town didn't have the will to make good on it's threat.

The Orcs and the tension associated with them remained, but several of the PC's playing the Orcs stopped attending events. With their numbers diminished (and two of the primary Orc PC's playing non-Orc characters from time to time) the Orcs faded away. The last of them to attend was Grok, who died sometime around the time of the ED saga. I don't remember what killed her, but I seem to recall Nuk having her severed head at one point.

[GM_Chris]

After a botched arbitration several townsfolk believed a war was inevitable and wanted to give the Orcs an ultimatum: either accept the laws, leave, or fight to the death. A couple of the townsfolk tipped the Orcs off and at first they ran, but a few other PC's eventually brought them back in and a meeting was held. Nothing was solved, and in the end the town didn't have the will to make good on it's threat.

Now we get to one of my pet peeves so I will be confrontational as usual.


Since I have always NPC'd I can assure you with every ounce of my being that if those ORCs were NPC's they would have died.

Do people really truly believe they are good RP'ers knowing they treat NPC's differently than PC's?

FYI I am not saying you should kill the NPC's, just be filled with the same level of compassion.

On the flip side do NPC’s feel they are good RP’ers knowing that they treat the characters they are playing as disposable?

[celegar]

i really think thats not that big of an issue, sure we treat npc's different than we do pc characters, because we know there is a person behind that character that has really emphasized with their character. as americans we are groomed to be nicey nice with everyone and make friends and not make people angry, and possibly with the exception of christen threatening to kill somone for eating a brownie(and i mean that in the most complementing way, your extreme you crazy grrl, ) i think we pretty much stick to that, there is a slight incling in the backs of our minds to play nice with the other people. it might just be that npc's as a whole are treated as disposable because in a medieval fight for your life fantasy game thats how strangers would be treated. its almost as if the fact that npc's treat themselves as expendable that causes the pc's to treat each other different.

why do you think people wouldnt shut up about appologizing to christen after they let vaun get taken by pirates, its because she effectively became an npc after she was taken and so people didnt have to worry about going and getting her, because they werent thinking of the person behind the character.

summary of point.

we treat pc different than npcs because we see pc's as people as well, we just see npc's as tools.

[GM_Chris]

we treat pc different than npcs because we see pc's as people as well, we just see npc's as tools.

I understand why NPC's are treated different.

My question is how can you think of yourself as a good Rp'er and continue to do that.

I will wait for responces befoe I get even more confrentational.

[Ark]

we treat pc different than npcs because we see pc's as people as well, we just see npc's as tools.

I understand why NPC's are treated different.

My question is how can you think of yourself as a good Rp'er and continue to do that.

I will wait for responces befoe I get even more confrentational.

oooohhhhh burn