Assasin
Moderator: Admin
- Kalphoenix
- Town Member
- Posts: 817
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:45 pm
- Todd
- Town Member
- Posts: 1111
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:03 am
- Location: somewhere making someone angry
We are presently working on the exact wording (cause the first version was mostly just in my head) for 'Unlearning' your lifestyle. As its possible to have up around 9 discpline levels, it will most likely NOT be one per event as normal (because it would take almost 3 years, and it would be quicker to make a new character).
Once its all set in stone we'll post a 'To the public' version.
Once its all set in stone we'll post a 'To the public' version.
~the Lunatic fringe~
Like someone already said, archer is completely different because they only stack upon themselves and not append to any call in the game.
I find it very interesting that 2 of the skills that have been the same since just about the beginning of the game(assasin sleep and man at arms resist sleep) and that to my knowledge people were not complaining about both got changed, and all of a sudden everyone is complaining on both sides about them. I'm still wondering why the changes at all, what was so messed up with sleep and res sleep? The changes don't really make any sense, doesn't Wayne have a checklist with the first thing being the change should be something that is needed?
And are you guys saying you aren't going to offer rewrites when you are changing 4th level skills and multiple skills in some disciplines? Thats sorta unfair, I understand you guys may not think there are alot of major changes this year but certain things(druid, assasin, man at arms, etc) got changed drastically. And the things that have seemed to be in constant flux (sage and assasin, which I don't think either has made it through a rules change without being changed) were fluxed again.
Why wouldn't you be able to change paths? I guess I just don't understand that. Your lot in life changes, you evolve and grow or some event happens and you no longer want to be a blood thirsty warrior but instead a sage or healer. At one point in my life I would have considered myself very rougueish, now I'm becoming a healer.
I find it very interesting that 2 of the skills that have been the same since just about the beginning of the game(assasin sleep and man at arms resist sleep) and that to my knowledge people were not complaining about both got changed, and all of a sudden everyone is complaining on both sides about them. I'm still wondering why the changes at all, what was so messed up with sleep and res sleep? The changes don't really make any sense, doesn't Wayne have a checklist with the first thing being the change should be something that is needed?
And are you guys saying you aren't going to offer rewrites when you are changing 4th level skills and multiple skills in some disciplines? Thats sorta unfair, I understand you guys may not think there are alot of major changes this year but certain things(druid, assasin, man at arms, etc) got changed drastically. And the things that have seemed to be in constant flux (sage and assasin, which I don't think either has made it through a rules change without being changed) were fluxed again.
Why wouldn't you be able to change paths? I guess I just don't understand that. Your lot in life changes, you evolve and grow or some event happens and you no longer want to be a blood thirsty warrior but instead a sage or healer. At one point in my life I would have considered myself very rougueish, now I'm becoming a healer.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
Actually, only three people are complaining, well short of everyone and in fact, I have had more positive messages about the change than negative. Just wanted to keep things in perspective.
As for rewrites, people whose characters were drastically altered and/or their character concept no longer seems to fit the current rules would be granted rewrites. What we do not want are people who think a certain skill is cool and wants that now instead of what they got, regardless of story and character concept. We in fact do not think there were many major rule changes this year and so we will be stricter on who gets to rewrite. Basically, we just want a real solid reason
As for rewrites, people whose characters were drastically altered and/or their character concept no longer seems to fit the current rules would be granted rewrites. What we do not want are people who think a certain skill is cool and wants that now instead of what they got, regardless of story and character concept. We in fact do not think there were many major rule changes this year and so we will be stricter on who gets to rewrite. Basically, we just want a real solid reason
Why would you need a weapon to parry crush?Todd wrote:Parry was always intended to be a 'weapon at the ready' skill.
As for the whole change, why was this such a late change? It seems that the most controvertial change of the season wasn't released until very late. Every other change had been brought up and discussed at some point during the year or didn't work in it's current form.
The simple fact that all magic items need to be looked at says that it really hasn't fully been looked into. Add in the fact that it's the first of it's type and it really seems unfinished.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
- Todd
- Town Member
- Posts: 1111
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:03 am
- Location: somewhere making someone angry
Um.. because your getting hit and use the weapon to 'parry' the blow and not take damage? I have to admit Im a bit confused at your question because it seems very self explanitory.Why would you need a weapon to parry crush?Todd wrote:
Parry was always intended to be a 'weapon at the ready' skill.
This isnt really a late change, although it was one of the last skills to be finalized. The Assassin was being looked at even before the end of last season for a make over. We had a few changes that we discussed, but none of them really seemed to 'fit the bill' as the saying goes.
Once we hit on this suggestion we looked at it (thoroughly I might add) to see how we could make it work. Using Archer as a template (and yes the basic function of Archer is identical to the new skill, although self-contained) we looked at the skills that this could be used in conjunction with.
note; The fact that the game is structured to have very few calls made this less difficult to balance then we originally thought.
Will this be the first of a new 'type' of skill? I dont know, but it does open up possibilities in the frame of 'bonus' instead of awarding ever increasing numbers.
Did we make it fool proof? I doubt it. Theres always new and creative (and sometimes exploitive) ways of using skills. But as yet no one has hit on a point that says, 'How the hell did we miss that!?' which is a good sign.
It wasnt done willy-nilly, alot of diliberation and discussion went into this before it was announced.
As for..
All the magic/special items were already being looked at to create a database to accompany the formulas we already have completed. This is a seperate, and ongoing, process made to streamline the system for other Chapters such as 'Winter Haven'.The simple fact that all magic items need to be looked at says that it really hasn't fully been looked into. Add in the fact that it's the first of it's type and it really seems unfinished.
As hard as it may be to believe we have looked into these things, and spent a great deal of time trying to make sure that the system is solid, and can provide the playing populace with as much substance and enjoyment as possible.
And Yes as stated this is somewhat of a 'first'. But there always has to be one.
~the Lunatic fringe~
Crush damage travels through weapons and is therefore is not 'parriable' as per the common concept of Parry (using a weapon to block/deflect an incoming blow). Parry is just part of the name of the skill, however. At this point, it's just a dodge or some other avoidance of damage (thus the full name of Parry/Avoid Blow).
All the skill does is drop damage to zero from the front. How this acomplished is up to the player. If you want to enforce some stereo type, feel free, but it stifles role-playing opportunities for players.
As for the skill being a first, sure. However, I don't see how introducing something of it's complexity is worthwhile over time (as adding each consecutive skill increases the issues by factorals) but that'll be fun too, I'm sure.
Ultimately, who thought Sleep was a bad skill?
All the skill does is drop damage to zero from the front. How this acomplished is up to the player. If you want to enforce some stereo type, feel free, but it stifles role-playing opportunities for players.
As for the skill being a first, sure. However, I don't see how introducing something of it's complexity is worthwhile over time (as adding each consecutive skill increases the issues by factorals) but that'll be fun too, I'm sure.
Ultimately, who thought Sleep was a bad skill?
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
- Todd
- Town Member
- Posts: 1111
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:03 am
- Location: somewhere making someone angry
I agree crush shouldnt naturally be parryable, but that creates 'exceptions', so for simplicity of rules it can be parried.Crush damage travels through weapons and is therefore is not 'parriable' as per the common concept of Parry (using a weapon to block/deflect an incoming blow). Parry is just part of the name of the skill, however. At this point, it's just a dodge or some other avoidance of damage (thus the full name of Parry/Avoid Blow).
And, again, you are correct. Presently it is used as a 'dodge' or 'avoid'. However in conception it 'was intended' to be a weapon at the ready skill.
It is not currently so.
I dont think anyone thought it was a bad skill. In fact 'sleep' wasnt really changed much at all. 'Pass wall' and the 'Critical Strike bonus' were the real problems and that is 50% of the Discipline. Changes had to be made and we think we have something. Time will tell.Ultimately, who thought Sleep was a bad skill?
~the Lunatic fringe~
- General Maximus
- Town Member
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:25 am
About 2-3 years ago parry was changed from parry and needing a weapon to use the skill to parry/avoid blow, and you did not need a weapon to use the skill.
Why would we as group want to switch back to the old style of parry and needing a weapon when it has been working fine for the past 2-3 years?
If the requirement of a weapon is required to balance out the new assasin skill, than something seems out of wack.
Why would we as group want to switch back to the old style of parry and needing a weapon when it has been working fine for the past 2-3 years?
If the requirement of a weapon is required to balance out the new assasin skill, than something seems out of wack.
It has nothing to do with the new assassin skill.
It just happened to come up here in the same discussion thread. We were talking about the parry skill and were wondering how players thought it worked. We were thinking that it seems cheesy for a warrior to be sitting at the picnic table talking with his "friends," one of whom pulls out a surprise attack (whatever that attack might be), and the warrior goes, "huh, I guess I parry." Does that sound dumb to anyone else? Does that sound dumb independent of the new assassin skill?
I won't repeat everything Todd said but will refer you back to his post since it sums up the fact that nothing is ever done without much discussion. I also want to say that this skill will not change and none of us have been swayed. Indeed, some of us are convinced that the skill is weaker than it was before. You guys are more than welcome to keep trying and we will continue listening to your concerns on this matter, but I thought I would keep you informed on our position.
It just happened to come up here in the same discussion thread. We were talking about the parry skill and were wondering how players thought it worked. We were thinking that it seems cheesy for a warrior to be sitting at the picnic table talking with his "friends," one of whom pulls out a surprise attack (whatever that attack might be), and the warrior goes, "huh, I guess I parry." Does that sound dumb to anyone else? Does that sound dumb independent of the new assassin skill?
I won't repeat everything Todd said but will refer you back to his post since it sums up the fact that nothing is ever done without much discussion. I also want to say that this skill will not change and none of us have been swayed. Indeed, some of us are convinced that the skill is weaker than it was before. You guys are more than welcome to keep trying and we will continue listening to your concerns on this matter, but I thought I would keep you informed on our position.
- General Maximus
- Town Member
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:25 am
If saying parry to an attack when you do not have a weapon in hand is chessy, change the call to "avoid" or something like that. The quetion is how powerful of a defense skill do you want parry to be. It's flaw is a surprose attack will always succeed if the back is hit against a warrior.
Yes, parry is powerful, but it is what makes a warrior so cool. They can take alot if damage if the atacks are to their front.
If it is viewed parry is to powerful, than add the stipulation, must have a mellee weapon in hand. If the call parry sounds chessy if you don;t ahve a weapon in hand, than change the call. The question is, what is driving the suggested change on the parry skill? Note: I understand this change might happen a year from now.
Yes, parry is powerful, but it is what makes a warrior so cool. They can take alot if damage if the atacks are to their front.
If it is viewed parry is to powerful, than add the stipulation, must have a mellee weapon in hand. If the call parry sounds chessy if you don;t ahve a weapon in hand, than change the call. The question is, what is driving the suggested change on the parry skill? Note: I understand this change might happen a year from now.
Chris has always said that the "name" of the discipline doesn't mean anything, it could be called skillset 1b and it would be the same, I would think the skills would fall into that too. Isn't the skill in the book as parry\avoid blow?
I guess my and what seems to be Aaron and Ried's point is there's plenty of stuff that might have needed tweaking and sleep res sleep just didn't seem like it did. That old addage if it ain't broke don't fix it would seem to apply in spades here. It seems like a change for change sake with an untested option replacing one that has been the same, was play tested, and seemed pretty well balanced and one of the more solid rules in the game for 4+years. It's like completely changing around the way that healing works, one of the skills thats solid and balanced to make it work twice as fast as it does now and have it heal combat reflexes at the same time and have the option to heal armor at that rate.
Hidden disciplines can be a great way for play testing, Even just using the skill in the game as NPC's. I think we all just want a solid rule book that doesn't have a laundry list of changes every off season. It certainly affects the players perception of the game when the rules are in constant flux. 38 seperate posts of rules changes, thats alot however it's looked at. Yeah some are small and there are fewer huge changes than some years, but if you are working toward a solid rulebook where the changes are adding new disciplines and such there has to be a better way to do it than trial and error with the rulebook.
I guess my and what seems to be Aaron and Ried's point is there's plenty of stuff that might have needed tweaking and sleep res sleep just didn't seem like it did. That old addage if it ain't broke don't fix it would seem to apply in spades here. It seems like a change for change sake with an untested option replacing one that has been the same, was play tested, and seemed pretty well balanced and one of the more solid rules in the game for 4+years. It's like completely changing around the way that healing works, one of the skills thats solid and balanced to make it work twice as fast as it does now and have it heal combat reflexes at the same time and have the option to heal armor at that rate.
Hidden disciplines can be a great way for play testing, Even just using the skill in the game as NPC's. I think we all just want a solid rule book that doesn't have a laundry list of changes every off season. It certainly affects the players perception of the game when the rules are in constant flux. 38 seperate posts of rules changes, thats alot however it's looked at. Yeah some are small and there are fewer huge changes than some years, but if you are working toward a solid rulebook where the changes are adding new disciplines and such there has to be a better way to do it than trial and error with the rulebook.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
I was afraid I wasn't very clear so let me try it again. We understand the evolution of the skill, that it was deemed weak at one point because it could not defend against crush damage. It was therefore changed to be parry/avoid blow. The wording doesn't matter. The fact, however, is that it was always intended, as Todd said, to be a weapon at the ready kind of skill. This does not mean that it was meant that you had to block (parry) the blow. You could in fact be dodging out of the way. We in no way want to hamper role-playing. The weapon out simply denotes you are combat ready, so that you are clearly in a position to make a defensive combat move. Again, this was always how it was supposed to be. This is NOT something we are just pulling out now, and it is especially not something we are doing out of fear the assassin skill is broken (again, I think the assassin would be very ineffective from the front anyway) but rather something we realized got lost in translation. To us, it is not even a change.
That said, play it as written unless we make an official ruling/FAQ addition.
That said, play it as written unless we make an official ruling/FAQ addition.
I personally like the new change.
I dislike the loss of Passwall. I love that skill. It makes me cry to see it gone.
However,
I think the new assassin 4 is better than good old sleep. It is more versatile and enhances the assassin's playability. Why? Vorpal Poison, vorpal Knockout(which is sleep.) among other cool and fun uses. You can vorpal poison your warrior, and then vorpal knockout them if you want to. (hero point.)
Vorpal knockout can be parried. Okay, this sucks, but the assassin should really be able to get aorund it.
Vorpal knockout doesn't surge through shields lik e sleep did....this is fine because frankly I found that kind of cheap.(didn't stop me from doing it.)
The assassin can now be more of what ever it is. a Valkyn'vi assassin is just AWESOME now. (the paltry 2 knockout, with this becomes a free sleep.)
all in all, I like it.
I dislike the loss of Passwall. I love that skill. It makes me cry to see it gone.
However,
I think the new assassin 4 is better than good old sleep. It is more versatile and enhances the assassin's playability. Why? Vorpal Poison, vorpal Knockout(which is sleep.) among other cool and fun uses. You can vorpal poison your warrior, and then vorpal knockout them if you want to. (hero point.)
Vorpal knockout can be parried. Okay, this sucks, but the assassin should really be able to get aorund it.
Vorpal knockout doesn't surge through shields lik e sleep did....this is fine because frankly I found that kind of cheap.(didn't stop me from doing it.)
The assassin can now be more of what ever it is. a Valkyn'vi assassin is just AWESOME now. (the paltry 2 knockout, with this becomes a free sleep.)
all in all, I like it.
Travis Cole