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wizard spellcaster spells and potions (ideas and criticism)

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:51 pm
by Ark
*caution, everything is in my own opinion*

for the most part i feel that people that play wizards do so for the alchemical side of things, they brew potions and dont really use spells.

i think that cooldown was a step in the right direction, but i still feel it needs a sprint in that direction further. and cooldowns need to be further cut to around 5-10 minutes per spell. (so that a wizard might be able to use more then one spell per encounter)

focus items need to be better incorperated into wizard, their almost required to be a compatant mage. perhaps rewrite the details and turn it into a master level ability for wizard and arcanist (make it weaker, less special effects, whatever)

*****Buffs

spellcasters can buff, except in our system. i think that warriors were given a skill that was destined for wizards (the group gets a 2 crush skill) and have thought that this would make a cool idea for wizard buffs.

i dont quite know how or what other things they would stack with, but i do think they should stack with almost everything, and with themselves.
all effects are per scene, take 1 min to cast, and effect a lash radius

first skill -defense augmentation (wizard can cast a series of defensive spells for the group)
-mage armor) grants +4 stacking armor, gone once used
-insightfull reflexes) grants +2 stacking combat reflexes, gone once used
-vigor of battle) grants +1 stacking life point, gone once used

second skill -offensive augmentation (wizard can cast a series of offensive spells for the group)
-sense weakenss) first attack deals "3 vorpal"
-brute strike) first attack deals "3 crush"
-inner focus) first charge up skill has -5 charge time and +2 damage

i feel this makes the wizard of more value to the whole group.

i also still want a virus style potion, something that lasts till cleansed or till the end of the event.

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:19 pm
by Ark
christen and i were discussing spellcasting mages. she wants them to be completly over powered so i have to constantly talk her down :D

while we were discussing it we think we came upon some cool ideas.

1) most people and GM's hate game stops, they break scene and are anoying. if spells are more usefull there are more game stops.
2) should not be able to spam them, while talking with jared we all came up with the idea of reducing the cooldown to even 5 min, but having the charge up 1 min, every time a game stop is called any charge up is reset. this would allow more spells to be cast but would not allow multiple mages to spam spells one after the other.

3) our final solution was what i will call evocation's there is about a 1 min charge up and a 5 min cooldown, once the evocation is charged it cannot be inturupted, it ends when the caster runs out of charges or decides to end the evocation at wich point the cooldown sets in.

here are some examples

Time stop: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 5 charges of "time stop" delivered via melee or packet.

Venom: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 10 charges of "poison" delivered via melee or packet.

Ice grasp: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 5 charges of "2 vorpal press down" delivered via melee or packet.

Calming pressence: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 10 charges of "soothe" delivered via melee or packet.

Remove threat: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 5 charges of "lash magic disarm" delivered via lash.


the only thing we would leave game stop area of effect was attack of the elements, it was broken to give charges of "10 magic" to spam. :roll: most of the spells thought up under this were more effects and less damage. as we belived wizards are more about versatility in combating a situation rather then damage. the buffs spells listed in the first post would be included in the spells.

thoughts :)

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:08 pm
by GM_Chris
Soo you want to add some damage calls?

Oh and yes focus item are required to be effective that was the point of them. I can agree that it was probably too much since we also limited spells.

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:25 pm
by Ark
GM_Chris wrote:Soo you want to add some damage calls?
to what are you refering?
GM_Chris wrote:Oh and yes focus item are required to be effective that was the point of them. I can agree that it was probably too much since we also limited spells.
thank you :)

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:38 pm
by GM_Chris
Time stop: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 5 charges of "time stop" delivered via melee or packet.


Time stop is not a damage cal.

We also had a bunch of different mechanisms in the game to reduce game stops but we had a PC revolt over them.

Oh and though I agree that we might have gone too far, I want to make sure I am clear that it is very different than me agreeing to change a rule. :)

Hail to the veto king!

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:41 pm
by GM_Chris
I do look forward to more discussion though!

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:44 pm
by Ark
GM_Chris wrote:Time stop: 1 min charge up, 5 min cooldown, gives the wizard 5 charges of "time stop" delivered via melee or packet.


Time stop is not a damage call.
i see no damage
GM_Chris wrote:We also had a bunch of different mechanisms in the game to reduce game stops but we had a PC revolt over them.

Oh and though I agree that we might have gone too far, I want to make sure I am clear that it is very different than me agreeing to change a rule. :)

Hail to the veto king!
i know what you meant. and i was not trying to get rid of game stop just for the sake of getting rid of it. we were simply trying to find new ways of making spells work that would:

1)- do more actions in a scene
2)- not add more damage
3)- work better with a group
4)- give them diversity
5)- keep their power
6)- not be spamable
7)- etc.

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:00 pm
by GM_Chris
Sorry when I say damage call I mean "call"

If you threw a packet and me and called "time stop" ow would I know what to do? We would need to add time stop to the call list.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:28 am
by Wyrmwrath
I think gripes about game stops are blows out of proportion.....its just anpther part of the game like calling 2 a thousand times. If THAT doesnt take you out of the mood, a game stop shouldnt.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:43 am
by cole45
Thats why there ARE still game stops. The pro out weighs the cons,


I think the spells could be buffed up.


CJ had this idea for arcanist.

You may memorize a number of levels of spells equal to your rank in arcanist + 1.

You may select spells from the main book list only.

To unlearn a spell you may come to NPC camp and spend 15 minutes swapping out the spell.

PCs would be given orange spell cards with the current wording on them.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:09 am
by Marcus
Don't forget Travis, that my idea also requires that spells go back to the way they were before the Expansion.

All the spells currently in the game available to a player, if they can get their hands on them. There would be one big master list that combines all the basic and expansion spells, and players can collect, trade and purchase them all in-game. It would just be harder to find or buy the higher level spells.

It would represent that a spellcaster can still use knowledge as power(by collecting all the spells they can find, and hoarding rare ones instead of trading), but their brains can only hold so many at a time, so they have to balance spells versus the utility of having them when they need them.

Like a giant version of Druid's LVL4 Mimic totem. Ignoring movement restrictions is very cool and all, but you run the risk of needing the "Swing Crush" skill but not having it. Also though, when you can prepare for a situation with good intel on what you are getting into, you are better off.

--------------------------

*Another cool idea: Make it a requirement of spell-casters that they have to be of the appropriate level to cast a spell (as normal, duh), but they also have to be of the appropriate level to copy a spell. So if you merc a high-level mage, but you aren't a spell-caster yourself, you can't just make a 1,000 copies of the spells to sell off. You have to get a caster involved.

Maybe even make spells cost a certain amount of copper to copy, to reflect having to purchase "magically imbued ink/specially- prepared pages" or something similar. The higher the spell, the higher the cost to copy.

Even better- when inserted into a "spellbook", or even when they are a loose page (as treasure, etc), spell descriptions have to be folded over like potions and marked with their casting level on the outside, and you can't even look at them to see what they are unless you are a caster of the appropriate level! So to a non-caster, a spellbook is just a book of gibberish. They know they have a book of spells, just not what it contains.

That would make spells more mysterious, and also "artificially" limit their in-game rarity at higher levels, so the moment a rare spell hits the field, 1,000 copies aren't floating around the next day. But at the same time, not nerfing starting spell-casting characters.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:57 pm
by Wyrmwrath
You may memorize a number of levels of spells equal to your rank in arcanist + 1.
should be some added benefit if they are a wizard path to show the added focus and more extensive skill with the arts.

You may select spells from the main book list only.
why the main book only? If they have gathered the spell into thier spell book, they should be able to chose any one if your letting them swap them out by studying a replacement spell/meditate(going to monster camp)

To unlearn a spell you may come to NPC camp and spend 15 minutes swapping out the spell.
I think 15 per level (and maybe +5 added over the highest level spell being swapped for each spell beyond the first swapped would even be better and prevent finiky casters from abusing it in any way)

PCs would be given orange spell cards with the current wording on them.
I suggest a card for each sell stored and a different card in thier "spell book" to show what they have archived. wording and effects and requirements on stored cards only, archived cards would have to be researched to discover the parameters and effects unless the mage makes his own notes...which may be coded (if he is smart)

they also have to be of the appropriate level to copy a spell.


reasonable restriction.

Maybe even make spells cost a certain amount of copper to copy, to reflect having to purchase "magically imbued ink/specially- prepared pages" or something similar. The higher the spell, the higher the cost to copy.
there are already enough costs in the game and magical ink should only be required if the GMs are going to incluse scroll production that would work like potions do. Then the ink would hold the magic the caster summoned just like the potions.

That would make spells more mysterious, and also "artificially" limit their in-game rarity at higher levels, so the moment a rare spell hits the field, 1,000 copies aren't floating around the next day. But at the same time, not nerfing starting spell-casting characters.
If a PC has a spell and can make copies, there is no way to limit its rarity. The PC could make copies for everyone lke Talana kinda did (silly girl). It would depend on PC personality and goals. Magus would never have given up strong spells so that he had the power, unless the trade brought him even more power. Once the GMs release the spell its rarity is out of thier hands.
The only solution is limiting the copying time and difficulty. I say 30 to 60 minutes per level due to complexity of notes and detail of gesture diagrams and such, more for spells they want to spread even slower. Maybe add in racial languages to the mix. For Example, some spells only work in certain languages, and so the mage must have that language or they can read and learn to cast t hat spell. Then even decypher script wont be a work around since the caster needs the language to cast it.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:55 pm
by NPC Christen
Maybe, CJ... you can make a new post for your good idea? Then we don't get confused who's talking about what proposal. It's a cool idea and deserves its own thread. <3

-----


Josh did a pretty good job of explaining what it was we had come together with. Really, there are some fundamental concepts with our changes that should be made clear so everyone understands what we are trying to accomplish with spell casters.
1. No one likes Game Stops. NO ONE. Yes, they exist and happen… but really, nothing spoils an intense combat or scene like breaking character for a spell or other effect. We’ve all been there plenty of times, and whilst it’s not the end of the world, it would still be really nice if there were a way to reduce them and still keep mages dynamic and fun to play.

2. Everyone, each path, has their place in the world and in a party. They have their balancing factors and their roll to play in a group. Fighters tank and do damage. Rogues kill crap and do traps. Healers heal, etc. Mages have always been in this kind of neather land where they’re not really one thing or another. They have a little bit of a lot of things. What we are hoping to accomplish is to make them make everyone else just that much better. Booster, status effects, and the occasional mind blowing awesome aoe effect. That’s the classic roll of a mage in any mmo, game, or movie, when we think about it. This allows everyone to have their place and be good at what they are. With a mage, they’re all just that much better.


3. Let’s be honest… right now we have so few spell casters because few people like them. With some of these changes, we’re not adding any real new mechanics, just using ones that work really well elsewhere and applying them in a new way. It gives the spell caster a way to feel so much more dynamic and useful, without taking away the glory that a warrior should feel in their element.

4. Spell casters will, in theory anyway, retain their classic feel and dymanic, without gaining more power of any kind. The balance that we have always struggled with will be very inherent in the system and we feel it will really play beautifully on the field. Please understand, we KNOW this has not been tried and MUCH playtesting will be needed before any formal changes are made.

5. All things require balance. Mages are no exception. In this case, we propose to make EVERY spell contain the ‘magic’ call. This does a few things. If we look at the metaphysics of the world, magic is simply the manipulation and application of essence. It is not its own thing, as it were. As such, though you may have created a fireball that is not in and of itself magic, without the force of the will of the will of the spellcaster, that fire would not continue to exist on its own. Thus, it is magic because of how it was created. This adds the balance of the fact that those who can resist magic SHOULD be scary to a mage. They still have to spend a life point, so everyone still engages in something.

Really, the best way to illustrate our system is through an example. Josh used his venom spell, so we’ll stick with that one.
VENOM:
Level: Basic
Call: 1 Poison
Delivery: Packet
Target: individual
Charges: 5
Casting time: 1 minute
Duration: until all charges are expended or 1 minute, whichever comes first.
Reload on charges: 10 seconds
Cooldown: 10 minutes

In essence, most spells will work like fires storm, only with more limitations. In this case, here are the examples:
- Bob is a basic wizard and casts Venom. He may not move during charging, nor once the spell is cast. He charges his spell for the one minute, and now has 5 packet driven charges of ‘1 magic poison’. He must reload each charge, and must complete the use of all 5 of his charges within 1 minute or his spell ‘fizzles’. Because this spell has a number, it does NOT surge. Anyone who can resist posion or magic may resist it. Rogues may dodge.

- Ally is an advanced mage. She has an advanced focus item. This allows her to remove the ‘1’ from the poison call so that her Venom now surges.

- Jack is a master wizard. He has a master focus. This allows him to MOVE once he has cast Venom, as well as deliver it via melee, any weapon short sized or small so long as it is a weapon CRAFTED for that purpose. Meaning, we add mage blades, as it were, to crafting. In this case, the balancing factor is that anything delivered via melee can be parried, so that’s the risk that a wizard takes for their mobility.

With these examples, there are a large number of things that can shut the mage down: parry, resist magic, dodge, and dive for cover, as well as anything that resists any of the additional calls included in the spells.

Now, Chris brought up that we’re adding a bunch of calls. I would argue that we’re not adding anything that isn’t already there. When someone casts Attack of the Elements, they call that. It is on the players to know what that means. It always has been. That would be no different here. Regardless of the name of the spell, when you make use of the effect of the spell, you say what it does anyway. “1 magic poison” is the venom spell. All portions of that call are familiar and common calls in this system and used in many places. “10 magic” is still what it has always been. We are simply eliminating MANY game stops and giving the spell casters the choice of mobility with a re-tooling of delivery system.

One of the other changes we feel needs to be made is the cooldown times. So long as you have a focus, only an insanely powerful spell should ever take more than 10 min max. A battle is over that fast. We also believe that ALL game stop spells should be moved to swap out spells, so no one who isn’t a FULL path wizard can even have access to causing game stops. Again, all spells also become ‘magic’ as that’s what they are and it’s always been silly that some can’t be resisted.

Josh and I haven't come to a complete agreement on what focus' should do, nor what they really serve for the mage. I have my ideas, he has his. It's something we can all come together and talk about, though I think you get the idea of what I mean them to do.

I know this has been a wall of text, and I hope someone was patient enough to read it. Please give some reasonable thought and consideration to the proposal… because one single fact remains clear: the spell casting aspect of wizard NEEDS to change… and we’ve been awfully short on constructive ways to do that. This is just one… but one Josh and I, as well as several of those we have talked to and collaborated with on this, feel has some genuine promise for Final haven. Thanks for dealing with my endless wordiness. ^_~

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:12 pm
by Kiel Reid
Why does Wizard/Arcanist need to change? Because as I see it they are currently balanced in this system.

If you want to re-write the system then re-write it. Show us the whole idea and how it will appear in a rulebook. Then we can actually see what you are talking about because seeing one skill does not give me the whole picture of what you are proposing. I'm not against the idea of a change if it enhances the gameplay experience but I want to see your whole vision.

Not that I'm anyone who is deciding what goes in the book, but I have gotten things changed in the book. The way I did it is by submitting my ideas in their final form. That makes it so all the GM's have to do is copy and paste.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:13 pm
by NPC Christen
Agreed... and working on it, Kyle. ^_~ Just wanted the basics of the idea up there for debate.