PVP and how it adds to the Game

[GM_Chris]

Not trying to insite a riot here or anything. I was trying to rephrase the entire event as if everyone was a PC instead of PC army vrs PC army.

All I am trying to say is we would of had the same result by calling everyone an NPC and if they are now called NPC's and not PC's then how does that reality change people's impressions of the event? Is it worse? Is it better?

We are talking about abstraction and levels of abstractions. Forexample some people have a hard time with algerbra because they cannot get over the fact that a variable can be any number. These people do great when you define the variable, but cannot abstract.

Here we are at the event and we ar talking symantecs. Here was Pentag who was obviously a PC, but then he had 17 other people with him who were obviously NPC's. We as GM's wanted the stakes to be played from a PC perspecive which created a stalemate which was bad.

Anyways. I think I can understand what you are saying about PC's having a greater commitment. I think that commitment can be harnessed to create better events for what ever side of the coin someone is on.

[Wyrmwrath]

I am evil, I kill other people because I'm evil, and I think I need your stuff. Eventually, I might be killed for my evil ways. Unlike a real life serial killer, I don't have a pattern. Unlike real life terrorist, I don't have a motive. Unlike a real life thief, I don't steal because its all I know or because I'm too lazy or greedy for my own good

Two things.....

First the "real world" motivations you are using are being drawn from the modern civilization....modern motivation and modern political structure and philosophy are anachronistic in a fantasy LARP as they are almost all medevil settings...different paradigm back then different motivators....different needs and all that....

Second....do you consider yourself an Evil person? If so then i'm suprised by your logic when stating those motivations. If you dont consider yourself evil, have you ever gotten to know somone that you felt was "evil" or stated they were. Have you ever talked to a serial killer, professional assassin, yakuza/mafia/triad member, drug dealer, terrorist ( one that did it professionaly....the rest think they are the good guys doing bad thing out of need), or true sociopath?

If you havent I will assure you getting to understand the reason somone would end the life of another can be and is so alien that it often is unfathomable to a "good" person. Few can be "good" and kill on a regular basis and of those fewer still remain free of the ice that settles in a persons heart (a refference to the strain on those like NAVY SEALS and such).

Our modern world makes killing somone even harder to justify and understand because it is no longer a part of survival like it often was in the conflict riddles dark and midevil ages. So in saying the PVP in a LARP seems to by illogical and incorrectly motivated may be in error for two reasons. First is yuo dont always get to find out why PC/NPC BOB kils PC/NPC DAVE. Second, you are looking at this, it seems, with logic from the wrong paradigm. What i suggest you may be doing, in essence, is judging the reasoning behind the crusades with the perspective of a modern small parish priest. Just an example...

Brian/Jux

[Nelkie]

Yes there is a difference between a PC vrs NPC.

PC's are more into winning, bein right, and being the hero's or anit-heros. They put forth much effort into a single character. PC's are more prone to perma kill other PC's

NPC's are more into the story and enteraining people. They put forth much effort into the story, not so much into characters. It is rare NPC's will perm kill PC, though it does happen.

By calling Brads group PC's and treating them as PC's, the focus of the game changed from the story to who can win.

When all is said and done, the evil PC's where as powerful if not a little more powerful than the good PC group. This is taking in consideration peoples levels, how the groups where orginized, army's, fortifcations, resource requirements, and each of the groups goals.

In the end, it felt there where little choice in what could be done. That the event was scripted, but we know there was no script. People who tried to rolepaly with the evil ones ended up dead. People felt a seige on the evil ones keep would have ended with most of the town dead.

It felt that the event was a contest between a premade group of killers designed to maxium there benifits when they worked as a team. Which is easy when you have a single goal and are only roleplaying the characters for an event or 2.
The other group is made up of indivuals that typical can not work together to save themselves unless there is not other choice. It is the fate of the PC's to be unorginized and chaotic, becuase everybody wants to be that leader, to shine in the light, but nobody wants to follow.

In the end, many PC's died, Pentag escaped, and people feel let down by the event. The story suffered and left many people upset on both sides. For this was a great idea and had to be tried. It is no ones single fualt for the past event. We have learned a lesson and must pick up the pieces and move on. Maybe something can be done to soften the effect of this last event. It is upto the wise NPC's who run this game to decide. It is a good game full of great people that I'm proud to call friends.

[Peace420]

It felt that the event was a contest between a premade group of killers designed to maxium there benifits when they worked as a team. Which is easy when you have a single goal and are only roleplaying the characters for an event or 2.

If you only knew... but then again we did walk into this blindly and I think most everyone was assuming that the NPC's would make it so that we could win if we were smart and worked together. IMHO there was no way that the PC's could have really "won", the best that could be hoped for was a stalemate, which is what happened. The PC's were outgunned, outnumbered, didn't have military pts, nor a keep, (the climbing wall really should have been used as the keep position since it was a clearing with a structure that was about as tall as the keep was supposed to be, I had walked w\in 20 ft of that banner Sat day and didn't see it.)

PC's are more into winning, bein right, and being the hero's or anit-heros. They put forth much effort into a single character. PC's are more prone to perma kill other PC's

Lots of people chop heads off of the NPCs all the time so we permakill NPC's all the time, not to mention if we come against a named NPC like Florin, the false Silverthorne, Gnosh we mutilate their bodies much worse than what was done to mine right down to drinking out of their skulls made into cups and mine was the most mutilated last event.

That reminds me, there is no "winning" at LARP, you may win a battle or an argument or something but the game is not about ANYONE winning and you shouldn't expect the NPC's to facilitate "winning". And I can't stress enough that Pentags group was roleplayed, and Chris is right when he says that they stayed in character more than the PC's do. Basically Sat night we were put in the position of trying to kill everyone in town, which IMHO(I know there is debate about this but not in my mind at all) or another way out. Basically a no win situation, either have the game mad at you because you just reset it or an anticlimactic ending to a very tense event, well for anyone that actually left the town more than once or twice.

I also don't think the story suffered, Haven didn't come out victorious like it would have liked, FINALLY!! The problem is we win when we shouldn't have so now people feel like we should always win and that simply isn't the case. And unfortunately IG and OOG I don't think enough people have learned that lesson, maybe if we would have overrun the town, killed everyone that didn't run away and did a jig on the entrails of the dead it would have been a good thing and finally drove the point home, or everyone would be complaining about losing their character in a no win situation that we willingly walked into without any with very little info. Atleast then maybe someone would realize just because Havenites are the PC's they aren't invincible and don't need to "win" everytime for the game to be a good one.

[Nelkie]

You are correct that there is no winning in larp, but there are many people view it as winning and losing.

As for coming into town and wiping everyone out, it should have been done. If they had the power, they shuld have done it. Than it could have been pointed out that we as a town did not stand a chance in this encounter because we did not work together as a team.

But the point is that we go to have fun and hang out with friends. How is the entire town being destroyed considered fun for anyone becuase the PC do not work together as a whole. It has been that way from the start, and it will not change. So we where set up for failure from the start???

[GM_Chris]

I didnt know that the PC's don't work together. You guys seem to always pull together when there is a big threat.

[Kale]

I didnt know that the PC's don't work together. You guys seem to always pull together when there is a big threat.

Hardly

[Peace420]

And a couple of the people that help pull things together were on the other side.

I don't think it was setup for failure from the start. I do however think that Haven was seriously seriously overmatched. nearly as bad as facing the army of Silverthorne . not in raw #'s or total LP or armor or anyuthing but the disciplines are what make this game and basic soldiers don't get those.

If Haven can't work together and never will then it needs to stop trying to be sovereign and let someone take over that will bring that order to it. (Geebus I sound like Anakin). But if Haven can't work together then they had no business jumping through a portal on what was obviously going to be a mainly military mission. People just get dead when they don't work together in a military mission that is plain and simple and there is no question to that at all.

[Doctor Erasmus]

Hmm, I don't remember jumping through no portal.... *hmm*


Another issue that was mentioned in some of our talks was that the Havenites had to try to make a fighting group out of the individuals it had. Pentags group came equipped to fight, knowing who was filling what role and what their job was. Haven not only didn't have this kind of ready made military unit... it had numerous individuals that just don't fight! Numerous sages, healers and support personnel that regardless of being told that they can overewhelm an enemy with their numbers, still know that they'll drop like a rock after 1 or 2 hits.

Not to mention... I wasn't fighting for nobody no how!! Hide until its over and heal whomever won... so far, its a good plan and is working well for me.

[Nelkie]

I totaly agree with what Blonidie, Brad and Erik is saying. Haven has never fully been orginized as a fighting unit. Parts of haven yes, but most of the time when battle occurs the plan is thrown out the window and it becomes a free for all. The fighting orginization Haven has been able to produce is small units that fight as a whole. But even this is rare.

So saying this, yes, the PC's where out matched.

[Shea Stonebrook]

To be honest I think that people just started to give up too soon....and stopped even trying, decided just to stay alive till we get back to Haven. I believe that had Haven banded together AT ALL we would have been able to overcome this threat, healers and sages included...

Talking and rollplaying just wasn't going to work (I learned the hard way!!) an all out battle would have creamed them!! Yes they had like 17-20 people but they always worked together as a group, under one leader, not in shifts or small bands. We could have wore them down. (hindsight is always 20/20 I know)

It's about information to.. after Audry and Atreus died and got raised no one asked us anyting about what was there, or what we saw..... we were at the keep for a long time and I think got to talk with Robin and Pentag and his gang the longest. Audry mentioned a few things to the Duke but he was too busy with other things. No one else seemed interested, so we tried doing things on our own which didn't work at all either.... it's obvious that we hadn't turned to be on their side because we got Killed.

Just my take on things....

[Eli]

To tell the truth I actually figured that the PCs would find our location, charge us, and kill us all Friday night, but then I recalled the PC's can't even decide on a law set to follow. Half the town wants to be able to do whatever they want whenever they want. They want to have a no laws, no leader society, because they don't want to answer to anyone. I cannot count the number of times I’ve been told “in game” that Corbin is just a political figurehead and has NO power over anyone. Everyone knows that Donavan runs the show. Why, because in the end the Phoenix answers to him. I doubt I’ll ever agree that it is unfair to have a group come into game working as a unit with a leader. Am I the only one who sees the Phoenix Guard? Or for that matter the original Guild of Light? Both of these groups were OOG friends that came into FH as a unit with a leader working together. Over time, like two + years they started to separate, but even now, the Phoenix is strong, maybe not as strong as in the past, but strong nonetheless, and it’s only been the last two events that the power of the Guild of Light was finally broken with Dalid’s and now Gideon’s deaths.

I do know that when I started working on the stuff for this event, I thought we were going to be full on NPCs, and yes after arriving was told otherwise. That we were going to be treated like Evil PC’s and were to act that way. (BTW I would like to take a moment to give a awesome job to those who played with us, they stayed in character better than any PC group I’ve ever played in). Yes that was partly why we started insuring no rez’s. I mean if you want to insure that a larger, better equipped group does not move on your location and destroy you on the first night, you have to make them fear you (See Machiavelli’s Prince) or (Elder Quetzel’s ‘April Fools’ illusions), and in a world where death really doesn’t exist because of spells, the best way to make others fear you is to absolutely destroy as many of the other side as possible. Make them fear death. PCs love to sit around and debate a plan of action for hours and hours and hours, and by killing some we insured that this would last even longer, thus buying us more and more time.

So with less levels, less people, and lesser equipment, the April “NPCs” overmatched the PCs because we had a fortified building? Or is it more so because the PCs cannot work together? While NPC’s were killing their friends half the game stood by and watched it all happen. While healing circles were being set up, and craftsmen were repairing armor, the PC’s stood on the hill and let us “repop”. There were support characters in the NPC group: healers, Empaths, craftsmen, arcanes, sages, rouges, etc. So it isn’t because ever member of the NPCs was a warrior. BTW we didn’t tell Eric everything, heck aside from Brad and I NO ONE on our side knew everything.

One could think, that perhaps what really happened is that some PC’s saw what was happening and thought to themselves… (hmm I could get everyone and go down there to help, OR I could sit back and watch them EAT Atrium… and well that will totally help me, because then I wont have to worry about his house for the rest of the year… Hmm) “Havenits: retreat…” I mean no one has even considered the possibility that PC’s let other PC’s die on purpose. I find it hard to believe that this didn’t occur. I know that using evil NPCs is a great way to get away with taking out the ‘real enemy,’ your political opponents, heck the real Dimack (the CARPS version) did that more than a few times! (BTW sorry about the whole sicking the Grom’s Horde on you thing Pen.)


As for resources, the whole party was organized around guilds, houses, and a royal alliance. So resources wouldn’t have been an issue, as one would assume that much like the pc’s getting all of theirs at the beginning of the game, so to would have the NPCs.

Finally, for your particular case, sorry Aaron, but you were PK’d by a player who has wanted to take you out for years. She saw a chance, and took advantage of it. It happens. If the GMs do something about the event, it is up to them, but I was contracted to do a job, and I did it. Nothing personal, just business, as I proved when I killed my own guild leader, thereby insuring my own pcs’ starvations, unless something changes.

[Nelkie]

No problem Soco.

You bring up many good points. You where asked to do a job and you did it very well.

I think there was a fualty assmuption that the PC's where or are capabile of banding together as one unit to defend themselves. It has been proven time and tme again the town can not. And this time was no different. There has been times where the town came together for a battle (after 3-6 hours of talking), but there was no orginization in the battle plan, people did what they wanted, and in the end the PC won because of sheer numbers and some heroic deeds. It is pretty easy to take down most things when it is 5 PC vrs 1 NPC. This last event was more a 1 on 1 to a 2 pc to 1 npc. Better odds for the NPC's and the inability of the PC to become orginized showed and many people died becasue of it.

I have had many people say that so and so should have brought the hammer down or forced people to do X. But in a politcal system where you rely on those people to support you, you can do that. If a leader tries to do that, they will end up not having the support to be a leader any more. The politcal system is setup to have small orginization and not have one central leadership. The people have the power, not the leaders, and most people (not all) want to do what they want and when they want, and who cares what X says. If X wants my support, than they have to lick my boots.

[Lambic]

Ok I would just like to point out that we are no longer on topic in this thread and that the General Feedback thread is still locked down. I don't think this discussion should continue until a GM comes in and either unlocks the other thread or starts a new one that is on topic for these sorts of posts. No offense to anybody but it was locked for a reason, and the haven't unlocked for a reason.

[Nelkie]

Wes,

You are correct. I appoligize for my over sight. No more until the feedback is unlocked.