A Question about Armor

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cole45
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Post by cole45 »

If we are going with stacked armor, then real and fake armor can be stacked, but it all has to come off to repair. Real + fake = fake.
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Post by WayneO42 »

My thought was that if more than 50% of the combined suit that is showing is real, then the whole suit is counted as real.
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Post by GM_Chris »

What do people think about removing the fake armor catagory completely and doing something else with it?


What do people think about posting pics in an FAQ as examples so we can get beter consistancy in judging
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Post by Tullus »

I was thinking about this guess-temation of armor totals. I understand why a person would want to do that: in order to size up a foe or to bring with you the most protected capable fighters. Yet, knowing the number and knowing what you see kind of brings you out of the game. *Ok, he has full medium.....that's 6 armor points. He'll do.* Or you as your character *Ok, he looks able bodied, he follows orders well, and I've seen him fight before. He should do well in a fight.* I prefer the second line of thought to the first. The first would tell me this person isn't truly in the mind set of the game. The first would tell me the person really wants to work out number strategies similar to a video game rather than playing a live action role play game. Why ask what the total of a person's armor is o.o.g., when the character your playing only has the same idea you do when you look at the player. It's as calculating/asking what level a character has in a single disipline or actually role playing asking, "So, what are your abilities in this area?"

I am all for making everything uniform enough to be fair. Personally, I feel that when I was play Ravinal and had heavy armor, it perhaps should have been medium. It was about 15-20 pounds and large plated scalemail. It was made by my and my friends hands. It most likely would have been considered real enough to stand up against a few real attacks. Yet, I didn't truly care about the armor total. I just cared that I had cool looking armor. It added to the game for me. Though, I can see that for others that do count calculate every eventuality, this may be important enough to be up at arms about.

As much as I like Taki's idea, it does seem to have it's flaw of possible unfairness. Though we would like to give exceptional clothing and armor additional bonuses, it makes others who may have spent money and time on their outfits feel as though they've not gotten what they deserve. I would suggest making chainmail always quality medium.

As for anything that may be added from the thread, we are suppose to carry on us item cards for what our character's have on them. If another GM says something different, you have the armor card that you had from the beginning.

Edit: As for armor stacking. I'd say use the highest value armor between armor. I wouldn't think that having an extra layer of something softer should give an added protection.
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Post by Slisk »

What I want to hear from is Doug
I've posted my take on the armor, and stand by it. Aluminum chain looks plenty real to me. Without seeing the weave, I'd default it to Heavy (if you think the weave is loose, downgrade it to Medium). To me, 'crossing the joint' means coverage both above and below the joint - and Chris's armor has that on all limbs.

So Real, Heavy Helm, Real, Heavy Legs, Real, Heavy/Medium Arms, Real Heavy Torso.
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Post by GM_Chris »

Slisk? See I just get confused by your ever changing avatar!

So you don't feel screwed?
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Costumes...

Post by Torakhan »

I thought that the "You've come in costume, here's a life point" covered players spending extra time and energy on costuming (or am I mistaken by that rule?). If we go beyond this, why not take it to the rest of the game? Do Empaths get anything cooler for expensive spell-books? Do cooler spell-packets do more damage? Do Craftsmen repair/make things faster if we have cool tools to phys-rep with? Do weapons do more damage if they are cooler looking?

In my mind Chain is chain, regardless of gague of material. A player who is wearing a lighter armor may just be a "stronger character" and isn't as hindered by the material as a "weaker character" who's player suffers by wearing heavier armor. Likewise Leather is leather. The only times this should come into question is when someone tries to abuse the "spirit of the game" by wearing something obviously inferior in quality just to get the point (Wrapping one's self in aluminum foil does not count as plate. Thin Naugahide does not count as leather, large thin rings that they claim to be wearing as "chain maile", etc.)

I like the idea of giving "cooler looking/more accurate" armor a special property given by the GMs who think it is cool (though it should have to be okayed by 3 GMs to do so, so that players don't go to a favorited GM). Likewise, if players have a concern over a min-maxer wearing inferior armor for better armor points, GMs may claim that the armor is inferior IC and lower its ratings. However, this should be the exception and not the general rule either. I mean, if we get to a point where most players are wearing $400 of genuine leather, or $700 in custom chainmaile, where do we go from there?

However, if we're making a big deal to try to make sure people meet SCA standards for armor Why not reward or penalize everything else in the game? Oh, yeah.. because then we'd need to make sure every character went through a lengthy GM approval system (assuming that the GMs had strict guidelines for what equaled what and could agree on the rules to begin with). And since we can't really do that, that's what the book rules are for.... to create a "lesser of Evils" that everyone can work with.

I was lead to believe that Final Haven was slimmed down so that it wasn't like CARPS... but if we're going to have 30 tiered levels of armor that require a flow-chart to figure out armor points and abilities, what's the point?

That's just some of my thoughts as someone who doesn't fight, has nothing to gain by armor points and doesn't really understand the combat system anyways.
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Post by dier_cire »

I can assume every warrior has quality. I can't assume anything about some subjective gm decision.

Wayne, I have no issue with the armor stacking as long as it's different types within the category. I'd think it'd be silly to see someone wearing two shirts of chain or two layers of hard leather for heavy.

As for breaking chain up, I say just go both steel and aluminum as medium. Long as it's decent ring size make it all real. Adding a decent amount of leather will put them into heavy and they are under the same range of motion restrictions as those in plate and the weight is close. this way you'd have an easy basis for where new types might fit.

Light - no major weight or motion restrictions. (ie cloth and leahter)
Medium - has either weight or limits range of motion. (ie hard leather and chain)
Heavy- limits range of motion and has weight. (ie plate)

maybe have +1 point if you stack heavy with medium on at least two locations? Thus, giving fesko +1 point.
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Post by WayneO42 »

Light - no major weight or motion restrictions. (ie cloth and leahter)
Medium - has either weight or limits range of motion. (ie hard leather and chain)
Heavy- limits range of motion and has weight. (ie plate)
I like this. It is broad enough to allow new types of armour to fit and defined enough to lessen GM subjectivity.
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Post by Donovan Thynedar »

To beat a dead horse one more time, you can not create rules that make you safe from the GM's. Period. You will always have to put some measure of trust in their vision and their sense of fairness.

That said, subjectivity is inevitable. Sooner or later, someone makes a call - be it on the field or in the authoring of the rulebook - someone's opinion dictates both the system we use and the world in which we play.

We will not always agree with those decisions.
We will not always benefit from those decisions.
We will not always like those decisions...

...but we will always have to abide by them, and that's OK. We have more than enough opportunity to make our objections known. I hate the idea that we're denying ideas because they could be unfair. Anything could be unfair. The same GM that would unfairly deny you a bonus could kill the hell out of you in the next battle, and there's no rule that will help you with that.

Mike asks if people might get upset because they consider their costume to be exceptional and the GM's don't. Yes, that is a possibility - but just like you can't create rules to protect you from the GM's, you can't make rules to protect you from whiny, immature players.

The lessons learned from CARPS must be kept in mind, but even within the scope we have estabilshed there is room for flexibility. I can't help but feel that some of the life, variety, and customization that could be added is being choked out of the system to accomodate a vocal minority.

Why does weight and range encumberance have anything to do with what category armor fits into? What are the criteria for evaluation? I was under the impression that the real vs. fake armor rules existed to encourage people to wear real armor, and that we wanted real armor because of its costume quality. Are we actually trying to physically encumber our players?

What about someone that gets tight knit titanium chainmail? It looks fantastic and in reality could stop more than any period plate mail. Would we say it can't be heavy because it doesn't impair your range of movement or weigh you down?

Somewhere here there is a balance, but finding it once again requires a statement of priorities. Armor is made and maintained in-game. Wear whatever you want and you're not getting points for it without a tag. The characters exist in-game, and that makes me think that the in-game elements should take precedence. What are the in-game elements? Costume quality (for immersion) and fairness (for... well, for fairness). I'd say they get consideration before the out-of-game factors: weight, encumberance, and coverage. If someone has the tags for their armor and an appropriate, convincing costume I see no reason why we should insist that they be weighed down or encumbered.

I don't really care about being able to calculate the most armored group by looking at them. In a game where better than half of a character's potential total soak (life and combat reflexes) is completely invisible, why should that even be a factor? You can still roleplay it, though. You can think back on how that character has performed in prior engagements and estimate from there (as your character would).

So what is our priority here? Thoughts?
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Post by Todd »

Your correct in that you cannot remove subjectivity, but you should try and limit it.

If you take one suit of armor and put it infront of 5 GMs the call should be the same 4/5 times, if not 5/5. If its 2/5 or 3/5 then theres a problem. We currently have that problem.

I personally am against stacking of armor. If I wear plate over chain should I get a bonus? How about plate over chain over padded? In a low numbers system you have to scrimp where you can. This is one of those places where the rules need to be direct, and succinct.

Based on the rules that we already have + a few things mentioned + my personal beliefs..

Light = Light leather and heavy padded
Medium = ALL chain and hardened leather
Heavy = Plate and scale over chain
*does not need to be removed to repair.

Fake (obvious, 1inch rings, cardboard, etc.) equals minus 1 catagory.
*must be removed to repair.

Costume bonus = +1
Exceptional bonus = additional +1

These are easily understandable and translatable rules, that allow for a minimum of subjectivity, and include inherant bonus's.

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Post by dier_cire »

Donovan Thynedar wrote:Why does weight and range encumberance have anything to do with what category armor fits into? What are the criteria for evaluation? I was under the impression that the real vs. fake armor rules existed to encourage people to wear real armor, and that we wanted real armor because of its costume quality. Are we actually trying to physically encumber our players?

What about someone that gets tight knit titanium chainmail? It looks fantastic and in reality could stop more than any period plate mail. Would we say it can't be heavy because it doesn't impair your range of movement or weigh you down?
Taki,
Nowhere did I mention anything about what an armor is made from. Titanium chain would be in the same category as aluminum or steel. They all have weight but low to no hinderance of motion, thus medium armor. Simple.

Also real and fake still would exist, though they do need some adjustments due in part to new materials used, and realism vs actual real.

Ultimately, armor is a phys rep and armor points are IG, which is why the armor needs to be judged on it's OOG elements to give that bonus. Same as why you can't pick up an axe (phys rep) and call it as a sword. It's OOG elements dictate that. If a knight wielding an axe phys rep started calling 3, it'd be pretty confusing. If someone wearing what looks like no armor takes 33 to the chest with no resist, it'd be pretty confusing.
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Final Haven is for Role Playing...

Post by Torakhan »

dier_cire wrote:If a knight wielding an axe phys rep started calling 3, it'd be pretty confusing. If someone wearing what looks like no armor takes 33 to the chest with no resist, it'd be pretty confusing.
As for people calling things that are "odd", unless it's a wolf NPC who calls 30 for a claw attack, or a newbie who tosses 60 Magic after 5 second charge, I think most folks don't have time to question calls and instead are just just calculating what they've taken as quickly as they can. I hear "3! 3! 5! 5!" all of the time from all sorts of folks swinging weapons.

Then how come we don't add these rules of "realistic items get benefits" to weapons too? Or to anything else in the game? Heck, why do daggers do the same damage as axes? Let's change that too.

If we're going to be so specific about how "accurate" things are, let's go the same route with players. Donovan gets to swing for 4 because Taki is stronger than Hanna who swings for 1. Players who can't run fast can't use "Flee". Why is this any different than being anal about real ring strength for fantasy armor? There are rules for what qualifies for "Real Heavy", "Real Light" and "Fake Light", etc., right? I haven't seen anyone actually quote anything from the book yet.

I was under the impression that the reason we have "generic rules" for armor and the likes is so that we don't get trapped in rules. Chris contradicts himself here several times saying that he wants the ability for GMs to be able to give changes to things when they need to, and then stating that we need to make more rules to adhere to. If we have to use flow-charts to figure out armor, haven't we exceeded the "simple rules" Final Haven tries to live by? Let the Role Playing make the difference?

Why can't we just keep the armor rules as simple as we keep the weapon and other skill rules? (not including special calls that come from sources outside of the weapon itself.) Nothing else is based on "prop quality" other than the 2 life points you get for wearing a costume (that I'm aware of. I could be wrong, I admit). Why go overboard with it? There are plenty of reasons why you can justify why someone is better in armor than another person (maybe it's better made in game, maybe the character is better skilled, or has other merits that don't need adjustment?)

Let players wear "more accurate" armor for the sake of making the event cooler themselves, not because they'll get more benefits for having more money or free-time to make better items. It punishes those who can't otherwise do the same (this will come down to an argument between the "Haves" and "Have Nots, I'm sure. Quen's leather apron cost me $40 in leather and it's just Light Armor from the front!). If someone's costume is REALLY outrageous (too cheap, excessively over the top), let the GMs of that chapter make the call then but make those "special items", not because of a complex rule system (and again, hopefully more than one GM will have to agree on that special item so that players don't find a "agreeable GM of their choice" who'll give them what they want.)
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Post by Soren »

Donovan Thynedar wrote: What about someone that gets tight knit titanium chainmail? It looks fantastic and in reality could stop more than any period plate mail. Would we say it can't be heavy because it doesn't impair your range of movement or weigh you down?
Off topic, but that would be sweet. It would be like Mithril.
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Post by WayneO42 »

You cannot use a pole-arm and call it a fist-physrep (physt). You can’t use a large shield and call it a buckler. Why? Because the props used to physically represent those in-game items have characteristics that limit their effective O.O.G. use while utilizing their in game effect.

A physt and a pole-arm have essentially the same in-game effect; they deliver damage and effects in combat. The physt is light, easily concealable, and very quick, however, it is also has a very limited reach that requires you to be more in harms way to deliver your effect or damage. A pole arm has long reach and a large blocking area, however, it is heavy, easy to spot, and relatively slow. These characteristics have been taken into account when determining what types of effects can be delivered with them. You cannot deliver a knockout with a pole-arm because the pole-arm's long reach gives an unbalancing advantage. You cannot deliver a 5 vorpal attack with a physt because its speed and conceal ability give it an unbalancing advantage.

The same holds true with armour categories. Things like the weight and encumbrance of the prop need to be taken into account because these characteristics not only directly impact the wearer's effectiveness in combat but they have also already been factored into mechanical benefits. One of the reasons heavy armour grants more armour points than light is because it encumbers the wearer more O.O.G. so we compensate with a mechanical benefit.

As far as the bonus goes for great looking armour, I agree with Art to an extent. I think the bonus should exist but I don’t think it should be limited to armour. I think if you have a costume that goes above and beyond you should get the bonus. If you are a craftsman, an alchemist, a sage, or whatever and you have props that go above and beyond, then you should get the bonus.
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