Mimicking Sage Skills

[Kaylan Chargeender]

because its your idea...so its wrong...WRONG I TELL YA!!!!

sorry...reflex...

[GM-August]

Honestly, the crux of the matter centers around the definition of the Mimic skill. If you look at the definition from a role-playing perspective then you cannot mimic a skill you already have. If you look at the definition from a mechanical perspective then you can mimic a skill you already have. Lets look at it from both perspectives.


You cannot mimic a skill you already have
The original implication was that you could utilize any skill you could purchase. The concept being you could mimic something you knew someone else could do, I.E. from a role-playing perspective. If you think about your character mimicking an ability they may have seen somewhere, it would not imply one they have seen in the mirror.

To summarize, you cannot 'mimic' something you can already do. A base definition states:

to imitate or copy in action, speech, etc., often playfully or derisively.

The implication being that you cannot imitate or copy yourself. The skill states:

With this skill the Sage may mimic any first level Discipline or Basic Path skill except for Arcanist, Diplomat, Wizard Path skills or anything from the Heroes and Villains Expansion book. It takes 5 minutes to receive the skill, but the skill lasts until the Sage begins to Mimic a different skill or the end of the event. Any armor restrictions of the mimicked skill still apply.

The word 'any' following the word 'mimic' was to show that you could garner a skill outside of your lifestyle.


You can mimic a skill you already have
The name of the skill Mimic is completely irrelavent to what the skill itself can do. The skill itself states:

With this skill the Sage may mimic any first level Discipline or Basic Path skill except for Arcanist, Diplomat, Wizard Path skills or anything from the Heroes and Villains Expansion book. It takes 5 minutes to receive the skill, but the skill lasts until the Sage begins to Mimic a different skill or the end of the event. Any armor restrictions of the mimicked skill still apply.

With the implication that the word any truly means any. This expands the scope of the term 'mimic' stating the Sage can 'mimic' ANY SKILL. By the definition of the word any, you can mimic any skill. Keep in mind, though, that you cannot gain an additional benefit from a skill unless it states so.




What I am trying to say is that the skill relies on some murky definitions and can be 'rules lawyer'ed to read the way you want regardless of original intent (which, honestly, I don't know). The ruling at Final Haven has always been that you cannot mimic a skill you already have and Kiel is right; the ruling would be a field call. As the game has changed and added new skills like Necropsy where it matters, a clearer definition is needed. Between this year and next a ruling will be made and the wording clarified to state one way or another.

[GM-August]

The following lists are for reference to the Mimic skill questions. I have also included a list of skills that are affected by this particular ruling. (The list of skills that can be 'doubled up')

List of skills that can be Mimicked

1. Ambidexterity (Brawler, Monk)
2. Basic Knockout
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Critical Strike
5. Cure Disease
6. Determination
7. Disguise
8. Enchant Weapon (Tribal Protector, Undead Slayer, Witch Hunter)
9. Extend Life
10. First Aid
11. Healing
12. Hold Ground
13. Inescapable Bonds
14. Lesser Channel
15. Necropsy
16. Pick Simple Locks
17. Press (Man at Arms, Pikeman)
18. Regenerate
19. Repair
20. Resist Disease
21. Scout (Druid, Scout)
22. Sense Magic
23. Spot
24. Taunt
25. Throw Dagger
26. Throw Weapons
27. Transference
28. Use Bow
29. Use Shield (Defender, Guardian)
30. Vigor (Knight, Warrior)
31. Wilderness Survival

Wilderness Survival does allow you 'double time' movements in the wilderness, so I included it within this list.


List of skills that cannot be Mimicked (Generally accepted)

1. Allegiance (Bureaucrat, Captain, Chieftain)
2. Basic Research
3. Investigation
4. Read/Write (Diplomat, Sage)
5. Utilize Resource
6. Upkeep Magic Items

List of skills that can be 'doubled up' I.E. the skill has allowances if the skill has been purchased twice

1. Ambidexterity (Brawler, Monk)
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Enchant Weapon (Tribal Protector, Undead Slayer, Witch Hunter)
4. Necropsy
5. Press (Man at Arms, Pikeman)
6. Regenerate
7. Scout (Druid, Scout)
8. Use Bow
9. Vigor (Knight, Warrior)

Basic Knockout or Critical Strike from Rogue do not allow 'stackable' benefits. Neither does Lesser Channel from Empath.

Looking at the above list, note that four of the eight skills in question can be purchased through one discipline or path and mimicked from another leaving only four skills that this ruling currently affects. Combat Reflexes, Necropsy, Regenerate, and Use Bow.

If a character invested in skills from Heroes and Villains (and played a particular race):

• Determination (Dwarf)
• Use Bow (Hunter Gather)
• Enchant Weapon (Elf)
• Regenerate (Ga'Vin)
• Scout (Tsunotaur)
• Necropsy (Valkyn'Vi)

...the character could purchase one or two of these skills and 'mimic' the ones from the main book meaning that the only skill in game that cannot be 'doubled up' by a ruling would be Combat Reflexes.

[Joe]

i noticed one thing about your list and that is basic research which can be mimicked if you dont already have it from sage

[GM-August]

If you look under the list of skills that cannot be mimicked, you will find Research. As the Mimic skill can only be used during the game, any 'between events' skills are useless. So, although you can technically mimic them, they grant no benefit. The same can be said for the Investigation, Utilize Resource, and Upkeep Magic Items skills.

Currently, the Research Book at Final Haven allows some in-game use of the skill, but the skill itself gives no benefit.

[GM-Phil]

Personally I would think you cannot mimic a skill you already possess, and would like to clear up the skill to say so.

Final Haven Rulebook pg. 29 wrote:
With this skill the Sage may mimic any first level Discipline or Basic Path skill except for Arcanist, Diplomat, Wizard Path skills or anything from the Heroes and Villains Expansion book. It takes 5 minutes to receive the skill, but the skill lasts until the Sage begins to Mimic a different skill or the end of the event. Any armor restrictions of the mimicked skill still apply.

Perhaps something like this would be more along what I was thinking -

With this skill the Sage may mimic any first level Discipline or Basic Path skill except for Arcanist, Diplomat, Wizard Path skills or anything from the Heroes and Villains Expansion book. The Sage may also not mimic any skill they already possess, but may mimic the same skill from a different source if possible. (I.E. The Sage has purchased the 1st level of the "Scout" discipline - Scout and may then also mimic the 1st level of the "Druid" discipline - Scout to double up on the Scout skill. It takes 5 minutes to receive the skill, but the skill lasts until the Sage begins to Mimic a different skill or the end of the event. Any armor restrictions of the mimicked skill still apply.

Something along those lines.

[Joe]

i agree completely with that wording as i use this skill in a pc i have at winterhaven but alot of the between event skills have in game uses except utilize resource im pretty sure ive seen the others used in game a various points maybe i havent seen research used but i can see how it could be if the skill was tweaked slightly

[Kaylan Chargeender]

Can we get this updated to be in line with the 2015 rules please?

The following lists are for reference to the Mimic skill questions. I have also included a list of skills that are affected by this particular ruling. (The list of skills that can be 'doubled up')

List of skills that can be Mimicked

1. Ambidexterity (Brawler, Monk)
2. Basic Knockout
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Critical Strike
5. Cure Disease
6. Determination
7. Disguise
8. Enchant Weapon (Tribal Protector, Undead Slayer, Witch Hunter)
9. Extend Life
10. First Aid
11. Healing
12. Hold Ground
13. Inescapable Bonds
14. Lesser Channel
15. Necropsy
16. Pick Simple Locks
17. Press (Man at Arms, Pikeman)
18. Regenerate
19. Repair
20. Resist Disease
21. Scout (Druid, Scout)
22. Sense Magic
23. Spot
24. Taunt
25. Throw Dagger
26. Throw Weapons
27. Transference
28. Use Bow
29. Use Shield (Defender, Guardian)
30. Vigor (Knight, Warrior)
31. Wilderness Survival

Wilderness Survival does allow you 'double time' movements in the wilderness, so I included it within this list.


List of skills that cannot be Mimicked (Generally accepted)

1. Allegiance (Bureaucrat, Captain, Chieftain)
2. Basic Research
3. Investigation
4. Read/Write (Diplomat, Sage)
5. Utilize Resource
6. Upkeep Magic Items

List of skills that can be 'doubled up' I.E. the skill has allowances if the skill has been purchased twice

1. Ambidexterity (Brawler, Monk)
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Enchant Weapon (Tribal Protector, Undead Slayer, Witch Hunter)
4. Necropsy
5. Press (Man at Arms, Pikeman)
6. Regenerate
7. Scout (Druid, Scout)
8. Use Bow
9. Vigor (Knight, Warrior)

Basic Knockout or Critical Strike from Rogue do not allow 'stackable' benefits. Neither does Lesser Channel from Empath.

Looking at the above list, note that four of the eight skills in question can be purchased through one discipline or path and mimicked from another leaving only four skills that this ruling currently affects. Combat Reflexes, Necropsy, Regenerate, and Use Bow.

If a character invested in skills from Heroes and Villains (and played a particular race):

• Determination (Dwarf)
• Use Bow (Hunter Gather)
• Enchant Weapon (Elf)
• Regenerate (Ga'Vin)
• Scout (Tsunotaur)
• Necropsy (Valkyn'Vi)

...the character could purchase one or two of these skills and 'mimic' the ones from the main book meaning that the only skill in game that cannot be 'doubled up' by a ruling would be Combat Reflexes.

[GM-Phil]

For you Brian.. NO

[Kaylan Chargeender]

PHIL

[GM-Phil]

Love you too