the use shield skill

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:06 pm

well this is one of the only skills in the entire game that does not give some benifit for having it more then once (and kudos on making all the others able to)

so thoughts

for every time you have the skill increase the shields soak by 1 after all other effects are taken into account.

or

use shield 1) you can use a shield
use shield 2) as above and can choose to use it as a buckler no matter the size.
use shield 3) as above and a shield no longer increases your armor catagory

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:50 pm

I can see your point but I'm not sure that multiples of a 20pt skill should give the effects of exotic items or other normal higher-level skills.

Especially if each level would also give +1 to the shield's soak.

I would say that 1 level does as standard, with a second level making it not raise the armor category, as that seems logical. But that again, that's an exotic item, too.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:45 pm

im going to stop you and say skills come before items. if a skill makes an item obsolete and it has to go away. . .im not going to shed any tears, in fact i might laugh a little.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:09 pm

...and Im going to stop you there and say a statement like "skills come before items" doesnt seem to have any logical foundation, and is really only because you seem to just not like items.
right now anyone can get a shield that doesnt add to armor class, but your idea to make that skill based limits who can have access to that. I dont see a logical reason why a PC/player should be limited that way.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:49 pm

i like certain items. but for the most part no i dont like them. especially when they would be better served as skills. i like games were your build is your power. not the amount of items you have on your character is your power. items usually bring ballance issues with them (as we have seen with crit strike)
one of the reasons i like FH so much is its about how you build your character, and items are hard to maintain. i dont usually talk about specific things on the forums because most people are set in their beliefs and not very likely to change.

i also dont really understand your second point, i even read over it four times trying to understand it. so if you could clarify and give some examples on why adding benifits for having a skill more then once restricts it ill be happy to reply then.

dont expect to hear back soon though, borderlands 2 comes out and im going to be busy for the foreseeable future.

Baxtor Warren · Post by **Baxtor Warren** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:03 am

doesn't the use shield skill allow you to use "a" sheild, so if you had it twice you could weild two sheilds

notsabbat · Post by **notsabbat** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:22 am

the Use shield skill allows you to use a shield and do damage. Ie. use a sword and swing for damage while using a shield. As I understand it you can actually use a shield without the skill as long as you arent throwing damage.

Not sure what that would mean in regards to using multiple shields or blocking with a weapon while using a shield when you dont have the shield skill.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:13 pm

I know if I was playing Rhul (who doesn't have Use Shield at all) and it came down to holding a position or going into the "protector" role, and I could get my hands on a shield that's not being used already, I would simply take it up and then go into Defensive Matrix(as I am already not swinging damage), or Hold ground- depending on the situation. Both of those skills become exponentially better with a shield.

There have also been times I could have used a shield for a similar role as my current Healer character, Marcus. It would be a pain to plan for, because I already wear max armor for the healer skills to still work, but there are times where a shield would be invaluable for battlefield healing if I was wearing less armor. I could then crouch over the comatose person, and hold a shield over as both as protection.

The skill "Steady hands" would stop any stray shots hitting the shield from disrupting me. I would rule that if I am actively blocking against someone it would obviously still disrupt me, as I am focusing on something other than "Healing". But against stray packets and arrows? That would be great.

I would argue that Use Shield doesn't need to benefit from multiple purchases only because just once gives you a hugely useful skill, with other skills that buff it immensely, if you are willing to focus a character towards them. It's the defensive equivalent of a Weapon Focus, for 20pts.

If there was a way to make multiple buys better without making other skills and equipment obsolete, I'd be more apt to be behind them.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:55 pm

especially when they would be better served as skills.

Doesnt exist, because then its a skill and not an item. Items are as much an part of the environment as races and monsters.

i like games were your build is your power. not the amount of items you have on your character is your power.

items usually bring ballance issues with them (as we have seen with crit strike)

good thing they are balanced by the fact its an item and can be taken. The fact that it doesnt happen is due to PC awareness for thieves and monster camp possibly needeing to send in more to target PC items.

one of the reasons i like FH so much is its about how you build your character, and items are hard to maintain.

odd I always though it was about the story/adventure/roleplaying and items and build were just the wheels on the bus so to speak...

i also dont really understand your second point, i even read over it four times trying to understand it. so if you could clarify and give some examples on why adding benifits for having a skill more then once restricts it ill be happy to reply then.

right now anyone can get a shield that doesnt add to armor class. Your idea to make that skill based, limits who can have access to that. I dont see a logical reason why a PC/player should be limited that way.

Edited it to make it clearer, In essence the ability to have a shield that doesnt add to armor catagory is something CAN have. You scrapping the item and making that ability only possible through skill purchase limits PC builds and function in a way I see no supporting logic for.

To be honest I am all for adding benefits to multi purchases.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:49 am

think i need to clarify a few things

when i say +1 shield soak, i mean the health of the shield, example:

use shield + heavy shield = 15 shield health
use shield + heavy shield + man at arms/dwarf skill = 30 shield health
use shieldx2 + heavy shield + man at arms/dwarf skill = 31 shield health
use shieldx3 + heavy shield + man at arms/dwarf skill + quality shield = 33 shield health

as far as the other idea

use shield = you can use a shield and swing damage
use shield x 2 = as above but use it as a buckler without size restrictions (buckler is seen under florentine but allows you to weild a light shield without increasing armor level. however its restricted in size, wich i got rid of in this bonus)
use shield x 3 = as above but now it can be any kind of shield, not just light. (heavy, medium, etc.

hope that clears a few things up

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:25 am

Remember the whole point of a buckler is it's size... they are little punch-shields. Buckler's do not allow you you hold a weapon in that same hand- you are still restricted to sword and board.

Swashbucklers just are skilled enough that such a little shield does not impose a penalty for them.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:02 pm

use shieldx2 + heavy shield + man at arms/dwarf skill = 31 shield health

why would I spend 20 or more points instead of buying a quality shield?

use shieldx3 + heavy shield + man at arms/dwarf skill + quality shield = 33 shield health

No point to add anything above 31 unless your go to 34. At 33 an elf thrown channel still ruins the shield at 33.

use shield x 2 = as above but use it as a buckler without size restrictions (buckler is seen under florentine but allows you to weild a light shield without increasing armor level. however its restricted in size, wich i got rid of in this bonus)

already possible without spending skill points

use shield x 3 = as above but now it can be any kind of shield, not just light.

use shield x 2 = +1 shield soak if used with a composite shield OR no armor class increase if used with a durable shield

use shield x 3 = Shield use not affected by rage restrictions OR shield may be used to use parry to defend against attacks to the rear

something along those lines would be more useful

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:43 pm

Wyrmwrath wrote: why would I spend 20 or more points instead of buying a quality shield?

use shield x 3 = Shield use not affected by rage restrictions OR shield may be used to use parry to defend against attacks to the rear

something along those lines would be more useful

because you dont have the money.

that only gives bonuses to master warriors, and there is no way for 40 additional points you can mimic the ability of master level disciplines ability.

i retract my comment, shields are good enough.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:01 pm

20 points is multitudes harder to get than coin.

Sure, my sugegstion does favor a master warrior, but who else if going to spend 60 points on shield skills. CAN anyone else get the skill three times?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:25 am

Healers and Sages can take Use Shield as a path choice, and a composite shield would still allow Healers to wear full medium suits.

A well-funded Battle Healer could potentially use a composite shield of any type and wear up to 12 points of armor, (either durable medium or flexible heavy), and still use all their healer skills.