Empath Lash

[General Maximus]

Ok, How is being able to do 2 magic lash vrs 10 magic lash different when you are up and close to an empath? That logic of who would dare to go up against an empath in close range is false.

The difference of doing a 10 lash and 5 2 lashs is about 2 secs. An empath with a shield can fend off a warrior for 2 seconds to do the same amount of damage. So emapth's have the ability to be nasty up close now, and being to cut out 2 secs or so really doesn't make a difference. If the empath does not kill the person they are lashing, than the empath most likely will die. In the 2 seconds you try to escape, the empath can follow, and it would take at least 1 second to turn and start running away from the 2 lashes. What we are talking about is a reducition of time. Thats it.

So are people saying the reduction of time to do the damage is overpowered, even if the amount of damage is limited? I agree the mage bomb could be a problem, but if the amount of damage is limit, max of 10 lash just like a trap, it would balance.

Question, if you are standing by an empath that starts doing 2 lash, how many lashs would one take before they leave the 5 foot range? My thought is 3, 2 lashs, and is if the empath does not move.

On a side note: an empath is only as good as the people who are protecting them while they charge there booms. No protection, means a useless empath becasue they will have trouble charging their booms. The great lash damage would just give them another aveune for a 1 time damage effect. Neat, some times useful, but very hard to use with out getting one self killed.

[Amagus]

Except the call is ‘Two Magic Lash’, not ‘Two Lash’. Takes a second to make each call. Someone quick on his feet could be out of the radius after taking just one hit from that. However, they could deal damage to the mage at least as fast (often much faster) then they are taking damage – meaning the mage is generally on the ground after getting off only one or two lashes.

[General Maximus]

I disagree, the lash automaticly hits, but the empath can block all incoming mellee attacks with shield and weapon. So the empath can do automatic damage and the other can not. The attacker might be able to to hit the empath occisanly, but not as often as the magic 2 lash will hit them. So an empath with alot of life can walk up to a now warrior and lash them to death and most likely take little or no damage. If the person runs away, the emapth just runs after them calling 2 magic lash?.

By the way, does flee protect a person from lash?

[Peace420]

Start a stopwatch and count the time it takes to say "2 magic lash" 5 times and then run the stopwatch backwards (if it can do that) or let the same time elapse and see how many times you can say 1 then multiply that by 2 to similate the fact that multiple people can be attacking the empath at once(which is only fair since they'd be able to unleash a bomb on multiple people) and they could be blocking some of the blows. By the time that empath got to 5 of those they'd most likely take quite abit of damage. And thats assuming noone who can swing 2 or more. It should be rather obvious that you could say a 1 syllable word 3-4 times in the same amount of time as a 4 syllable phrase. *Shrugs*

Doug was right on in his assesment IMO, empaths are "give me a little time and range" fighters not close quarter bombs. Empath lash bomb simply doesn't balance any way you look at it.

[dier_cire]

So in the instance that a lone empath is jumped by five thugs, it's more powerful than it was previously. I'll give it that.

A "one" and/or "two" call takes about .2-.25 seconds, btw (you will slow down after the initial burst). Much faster and it gets jumbled and hard to understand. (which is annoys me to no end when I see it done that way as "wa! wa! wa! wa! one!" is not a call)

"2 Magic Lash" took about 0.5 seconds. The nice part about it, is you can put emphasis on the 2 and let the rest roll, while you mind resets for the next call, which is why it's only

The empath isn't an inept fighter, that's up to the player.

In a one on one, it should have little to no effect. In a multiple on multiple scenario, it has little to no effect. In a multiple on one enemy it has little to no effect. In the lone empath, it does change it somewhat, though it probably starts at 3 on 1 or higher. If I'm wrong on these, let me know. Playing them out in my head, I don't see it. Walk me through the scenario in your head and we'll see how we differ.

[GM_Chris]

I thought I woul weigh in

Here is a situation I do NOT want.

Empath armed with shield and sword runs into the middle of 5 PC's then calls 15 to 18 lash

Then, because they are a knight starts swinging 2 damage to all around them

Next, the person starts to run away and you charge a boom and hit them in the back.

Nope I do not want that.

Much rather have the run in.

Sream 2 magic lash (Oh and if they cannot understand the call because you said it so fast you did not articulate then it no county) and the 5 people beat you down silly by the time you get to say 2 magic last twice more for a total of 6 damage.

Chris

[dier_cire]

Ok, that's one scenario. Now for argument's sake, it's only "14 magic lash" (20th level knight with sage buff), and does it matter that he'd die in two hits after that call? As well, how often would that situation ever happen? I can't imagine a single player throwing away a year+ old character to do that.

What if the empath could only yell "10 magic lash"? As an alternative, the "2 magic lash" call would get probably four off (5 hits of time). Total difference of 6 damage...

[GM_Chris]

If you pick your timing correctly an empath can flank a weak side of a line an lash, and as you have said start hiding behind their shield.

This is not a single empath situation this is a situation where you have a group behind you.

So lets take Elder order. You guys practice a technique where you send Aaron's warrior empath into the fray to flank a weak side as the main forace hits the shield wall.

Now the empath uses all but 2 life and lashes for enough damage to knock out the supporting troops. The shield wall is forced to turn to deal with the single threat. The empath turns and rejoins the group to be healed.

Another idea is you have your main group stand about 10 feet away.

Empath 1 runs up and does 10 damage to a shield wall and quickly retreats behind his own shield wall for healing. At that time a 2nd empath runs up and does 10 lash and quickly retreats for healing. Finally a 3rd empath runs up and does 10 lash and retreats behind the shield wall.

How many empaths in Elder's order?

[Lao]

By allowing an empath to do large damage in one burst, by themselves....you have changed the game dynamics away from group vs group and into empath vs group. This goes against everything I have seen everywhere else in FH, and for that reason alone it shouldnt be allowed IMO.


Take the scenario of 5 PC's who are not powergamed as you always seem to assume, but real normal characters. Even take 1 of each discipline. Make them all 20th level. Dont Assume that just because your characters can get quality armor etc etc that these folks have those things as well. Just take the base characters.

Now take one empath who IS powergamed and can call that 14 magic lash. He runs up to that group of 5 PC's and does his lash...how many of those PC's die instantly, how many are bleeding out, and how many are still standing? Without bothering to do the math Im fairly certain of the results. (Im guessing Empath dead, Healer Dead, Sage dead, Rogue Dead, warrior standing...or pretty close to this. Heck, you can even take the example of Maximus VS the falcons flight and see what happens. Lao still standing(assuming I have my armor on), Jade still standing (I think), Ming Dead, Vaun Dead, Onyx Dead. Now same scenario only calling 2's. Lao and Jade square off to fight Maximus...Ming, Vaun, and Onyx Scatter in different directions. So now the general cant chase down and lash all 3 of them to death...they went different directions.)

That is why it shouldnt be allowed. Not because one powergamed empath vs a group of powergamed others is balanced....but because one powergamed empath is all it takes to force everyone else to either powergame or suffer the consequences.

Nuff said

[General Maximus]

Ha, Ha, I am starting to find this humurios. The extra damage lash is not required to have any one person to be a force. There many other ways where 1 person can distract and kill a group of people when they are working with another group of people.

I get the point, the majority feel the extra lash damage is over powered. It won't happen, and thats cool. I just had to bring it up.

My question was never answered, does flee protect against lash?

[Peace420]

Wow... just... wow... I feel like I'm taking crazy pills....

[cole45]

crap you caught on. *LOL*

[dier_cire]

So lets take Elder order. You guys practice a technique where you send Aaron's warrior empath into the fray to flank a weak side as the main force hits the shield wall.

And that's still the one empath versus many situation. I've already said that is an issue. The other situation could be done without the increased lash, it'd just take longer. It's already been said the main benefit is the time factor.

That is why it shouldnt be allowed. Not because one powergamed empath vs a group of powergamed others is balanced....but because one powergamed empath is all it takes to force everyone else to either powergame or suffer the consequences.

You cannot balance a ruleset to the mediocre. If a player has a poor character build, it's not the rules fault, nor should the rules cater to them.



Now, so ramped uncontroled damage is over the top, accepted. The 5 life limit isn't enough of a container. The skill is underpowered, however.

If it were base 2 + 1 per additional life, you'd have a max of 10 damage for a 9 life expenditure (using max as a 20th level savage empath with sage buff and basic warrior). Add in a 5 count for additional life use (so as to avoid combo'd boom, lash).

Why bother with this as it's quite a bit more wording? Because the skill is an advanced skill and is overpowered by the basic empath boom.

Honestly, I'd rather see this skill as a modifier to booms than it's own skill. Adds "Lash", divides the damage by 3, round up, and costs 1 life for every 3 damage to be dealt, round up. (ie 5 boom becomes 2 lash for 1 life, 8 - 3 for 1, 10 - 4 for 2, 13 - 5 for 2, 15 - 5 for 2, 18- 6 for 3, 30 - 10 for 4, 33 - 11 for 4). Granted these all still require the charge times too.

[GM_Chris]

I agree with Evan and Aaron has backed off...the stars are alighned for once in a cosmic balance of gooooiness.

It is fair to say case closed on this issue.

[dier_cire]

It is fair to say case closed on this issue.