FinalHavenLarp.com

oh we weren't? oh well, now that we are:

if we are going ahead with our little jump can we take this opportunity to clean house with magic items? something to the effect of over the years the magic has faded or some such, end result, all magic items currently in circulation go by by.

over the years some borderline broken and other small and silly items have come into game, I think if the story is going to have a slight lul so it can restart then I see no reason why this could not happen. I know we all like our toys, and I know some people personally are going to yell at me (you know its broken don't be mad) with the changes to the game and story this just seems like something that should happen.

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story reason out of the way, there are some seriously broken items in game, (way beyond the small potato's of curved balanced bs) magic items by there nature destroy any semblance of balance within a system, especially when the items or skills are not made to take each other into account. fighter, rogue, and warrior are "in theory" balanced against one another and a certain circle of death. but now the warrior has an item that lets him resist magic, or a rogue can parry. all balance goes out the window.

FH has done omgwtf powerful items well in the past, they have been restricted to an in game location or particular event to make that particular story more epic but not harm overall gameplay. potions do unique and powerful effects well too, as they override your character and thus can be balanced against a specific level of character and have negatives. however almost all constant items are balanced by bum bum bum: upkeep cost, not character cost.

I know at one point someone was bringing in so much money alone they wanted to give every rogue curved balanced blades (they could afford a bunch of them np) so that how broke it was would be so obvious after one event it would get fixed, and as I said that is small potatoes compared to items floating around. (no it was not me, though I supported the idea)

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currently magic items are mostly just inflation and escalation with only upkeep cost, you get extra skills, effects, or powers, for money or resources.

potions like Power of the vampire, free the beast, etc. are a good example of how powerful effects should be handled. they are balanced against themselves.

some solutions:
-don't let these items make it in game in the first place.
-balance them against themselves more extreme, the cost should outway the benefit compared to skills, as your getting it for free.
-stop inflation and go with incomparables, example: an item lets you change crit strike, you can use it as normal, or increase the count by 10 to add poison to the call, not direct number inflation.
-im sure there are more but im busy atm. . .

food for thought.

So you want to arbitrarily remove all magic items from the game regardless of what they do because there are some items that imbalance or break the system?

I'm sorry but that's probably one of the worst ideas I've heard to deal with the situation. If you have an issue with someone that owns a magic item, or items, kill them in their sleep (All it takes is a five count), take the item(s), and destroy them under the banner of "no one should have this power, ever." Deal with it in-game, not through narrative.

To take any item, much less all of them, because it restarts the balance of no magic items removes player agency, not to mention their time, effort, and resources to acquire any of their items. Quite frankly, if that would occur, I would probably cease going to any game that did that en masse. I have better things to do than build a character up and have any and all my items taken by GM retcon. There are more creative ways to deal with the issue.

A year or so ago all magic items were collected in the off season and readjusted to be more balanced. I, for one, actually had an item taken away and compensated with a commodity. Something like that would be more feasible than a whipe of items. I have a hard time believing that in 2 years, the game has become over saturated with "omgwtf" overpowered magic items.

I'm not sure what evidence you have of all these super-broken items being in play now days as I doubt PCs are getting in line to show you their magic item tags, nor do I think you have a master list.

Nearly every magic item put into game over the past two years were one shot items. There are a few exceptions, but this is the tact we took to prevent overly powered magic items into game. Like I said, a few went in that did not fit this mold but generally, cool one shots is the direction we have taken.

@Ollie:
killing peoples characters over something that is a design problem is very much a bad idea, it does not fix the core problem, and it will make a lot of players angry. though PVP does play a part in this that I will address later.

@Zydana:
although I am not aware of what everyone has, obviously. I am friends with a lot of players, we do talk about things we have in game, and that's as far as I will go on the subject.

@Ovak:
I am glad that a different approach is being taken. but as we know from experience, breaks happen, things slip by that should not, and scenes have been ruined because people have had things they should not have had.
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PVP comes into play because FH is a PVP game, and including that one thing means that a much stricter form of balance is required. FH being a low number fast advance systems is FANTASTIC for this. and the advanced rules of perks (most being flavor skills) and advanced skills (adding options but never really power) is also great.

however FH has always had a problem with items, most breaks after its inception have always been because of items, and not really because of broken skills. crafted items, potions before the multiple fixes and reimagining, spells before fixes, and exotic items and special items gained through plots (this still plagues the game)

Critical strike: was okay at 5 for 3, however an unnecessary slight increase in damage combined with new potions combined with exotic items destroyed any balance in the skill.
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everyone wants to be powerful, to be a special squirrel, and be or have something that others don't. this is just how it is. but in a PVP oriented game designed for a mass amount of people things have to be fair.
if one person seems too powerful (because everyone wants to be) others feel weak.
if others feel weak (they want to seem powerful too) they don't have fun.
if they don't have fun (its why you play a game) they stop playing.
if they stop playing. . .well. . .nothing.

the FH system of simple system and fast advance is a great concept from any game stand point. however it is still plagued by some problems. I hope this is realized and fixed because I do love this game, but it needs to be fair so everyone can have fun, just like any other game.

that one thing means that a much stricter form of balance is required.

why?

Critical strike: was okay at 5 for 3, however an unnecessary slight increase in damage combined with new potions combined with exotic items destroyed any balance in the skill.

I also find it odd your still harping on this when there is no fact to support the statement, and its only really good against non warriors or against people in groups...which makes it even more risky to use.

everyone wants to be powerful, to be a special squirrel, and be or have something that others don't.

Is it "Arks makes untrue statement" day? Not everyone plays to be "different", some people actualy role play.

if one person seems too powerful (because everyone wants to be) others feel weak.
if others feel weak (they want to seem powerful too) they don't have fun.
if they don't have fun (its why you play a game) they stop playing.
if they stop playing. . .well. . .nothing.

the only person i can see saying this...is you.

Kaylan Chargeender wrote: -snip-

wrong!

why?

reasons!

and yes I really am the only person that posts this stuff on the boards, most people just got frustrated and quit playing, and whilst that is the easy option, i really do like this game.

Kaylan Chargeender wrote:
-snip-


wrong!

why?

reasons!

Brilliant response, well put. Its clarity is only surpassed by the lack of any mention of what your replying to.

and yes I really am the only person that posts this stuff on the boards, most people just got frustrated and quit playing, and whilst that is the easy option, i really do like this game.

you misunderstood, I said your the only one that would say it...on the forum, at home...anywhere; NOT just the only one to post it.

Also, anyone that leaves because they don't feel special and powerful...should; and look up a therapist on the way home.
Its a role playing game....come to role play and interact as your PC, not for self aggrandizement and attention seeking...unless your attending for the wrong reasons that is.

if one person seems too powerful (because everyone wants to be) others feel weak.
if others feel weak (they want to seem powerful too) they don't have fun.
if they don't have fun (its why you play a game) they stop playing.
if they stop playing. . .well. . .nothing.

Yeah, this is likely one of the key disagreements we're going to have, Ark, and I don't see a happy middle ground emerging any time soon.

If you measure your contentment and enjoyment against the successes and power of other PC's, then nothing but a perfectly equal system will feel fair. Any advantage earned or end achieved must be counterbalanced both by a equivalent penalty and similar opportunity for every other player in game. That's how video games work, but that is not how stories work. I'm here to tell stories, and that means you don't always win and things aren't always equal. Some people get lucky, some people play smart, some people make friends, some people have natural physical, mental and social gifts. The system cannot and should not try to negate those things. I believe that the system must do is provide a clear and reliable interface that provides the same basic mechanics for all participants. If some players are more successful than others in acquiring favors, friends, items and advantages I don't feel it is the system's job to negate those gains.

I won't go so far as Brian has and suggest therapy, but I know that measuring your power against other players is a recipe for disappointment. The world of Phanterra is big enough for everyone who works hard and smart to carve out a piece of it for themselves, and the GM staff has always been willing to reward roleplay, dilligent effort and patience. I'll say it again, my biggest secret to success (with any of my characters) was playing WITH the other PC's and AGAINST the game world. Time and again I shook my head in disbelief as PC's shanked each other over pocket change as a few of us used a bit of forethought and cooperation to generate massive gains.

I'm pleased that we're having this discussion because I think it gives us the opportunity to expose a fundamental difference in game philosophy. Neither approach is "broken" or "unfair", even if one philosophy pulls the system out of sync with what others would like to see.

Ark, I encourage you to keep posting. Brian, I encourage you to do the same - but let's be sure we're discussing these issues in the proper context. Not everything you disagree with is "broken", "fairness" doesn't mean everyone is the exactly the same and different people have different requirements in terms of "fun".

While i agree everyone seeks "fun" in thier own way, my point always has and always will be....if you cant find your fun in the STORY of a role playing game (as opposed to the combat or only when your powerful) then you are essentially trying to use a tricycle to fly across the Atlantic or Pacific ocean. Role playing games are about being your PC...in that story...and the experience and insight that comes from that. Nothing else.

Kaylan Chargeender wrote:While i agree everyone seeks "fun" in thier own way, my point always has and always will be....if you cant find your fun in the STORY of a role playing game (ass opposed to the combat or only when your powerful) then you are essentially trying to use a tricycle to fly across the Atlantic or Pacific ocean. Role playing games are about being your PC...in that story...and the experience and insight that comes from that. Nothing else.

I agree with this completely, so very, very , completely. I personally may be good at combat, but I come for the story and to explore an open ended world, to RP with others, and experience the stories the GM's create for us.

i feel that your own individual skills (physical, mental and social gifts as taki said) should be used to manipulate the story and the RP.

but i hate rule sets where power is based on the items you have or wealth you have amassed over the skills your character or you have, it is down right stupid. if every exotic/magic item was removed it would be a better game, they don't matter.

Ark wrote:

Kaylan Chargeender wrote:While i agree everyone seeks "fun" in thier own way, my point always has and always will be....if you cant find your fun in the STORY of a role playing game (ass opposed to the combat or only when your powerful) then you are essentially trying to use a tricycle to fly across the Atlantic or Pacific ocean. Role playing games are about being your PC...in that story...and the experience and insight that comes from that. Nothing else.

I agree with this completely, so very, very , completely. I personally may be good at combat, but I come for the story and to explore an open ended world, to RP with others, and experience the stories the GM's create for us.

i feel that your own individual skills (physical, mental and social gifts as taki said) should be used to manipulate the story and the RP.

but i hate rule sets where power is based on the items you have or wealth you have amassed over the skills your character or you have, it is down right stupid. if every exotic/magic item was removed it would be a better game, they don't matter.

We play a fantasy LARP where players can't do the cool stuff their characters can. Players are augmented by mechanics to make them different and able to do other things that they can't do in reality.
But even in Real Life, people who have the better things, more wealth, and the likes, tend to succeed more as well.
So what you're looking for is a LARP where all players are given the same equipment (a shield, a sword, a knife) and there are no mechanical skills or abilities... you run around, you hit each other, and they fall over and make a new character because they're dead, or dismembered.

The closest thing that I can think of would be a few of the zombie survival LARPs that have come across my RADAR, but even then they usually have varying quality levels of equipment, and many last only a few hours and run 3 scenarios a day.

Final Haven, and other LARPs, combine mechanics, along with player skill to create the opportunity for players to create characters different from themselves. That's not going to change. The story (both the personal and the collaborative/cooperative story) are all important to keep in mind, but there is a balance with mechanics that are important for our games to allow the sorts of stories we all want to be a part of. Otherwise, we're just looking at a game of "King's Rules LARP", and that's not what Final Haven rules will ever become.

I agree with this completely, so very, very , completely. I personally may be good at combat, but I come for the story and to explore an open ended world, to RP with others, and experience the stories the GM's create for us.

funny you say that since the only focus I have ever seen you show here is the rules, rules, rules, combat, ruiles, crit strike, rules, crit strik and combat. Not in that order though...

but i hate rule sets where power is based on the items you have or wealth you have amassed over the skills your character or you have, it is down right stupid.

Uhm.....im not sure what rules your reading, but FH is not even CLOSE to being based on items and money. Aside from the basic combat need to have at least a sharp pointed stick, i havent seen nor can i think of a single skill that REQUIRES an item. Even SHIELD doesnt require having a shield, just makes one tougher IF you have one.
They are in the game because they make as much sense to have as buildings and food and air and weather in a game about humans/beings of humanish mindset and survival needs. They are essentially tools, just like a shovel or a fork. Should we remove the shovel and the fork too?
any societal simulation where there exists "good and evil" or similar pro and an tagonisim, beings will seek the most powerful tool they can to survive. Could be potent armor, gems that control the mind of others, weapons to lay waste to those that stand against you, or a really really expensive magic key to get into Korrigans vault. But the game isnt based on them..."human nature" is. Since we are simulating a world where the beings think and act like humans as a foundation for building thier paradigms...there will always be a quest for such augmenting items.

if every exotic/magic item was removed it would be a better game, they don't matter.

No...not better, just different and artificial and illogical; and to some extent bland. some of the best stories are spun around an item that gets outta hand or into the wrong hands.

cant really argue RP, its not I finite mechanic. as long as its not abused any RP is good RP.

any RP is good RP.

yeah thats not really true, if it was I could play a PC that knows its a game world and not real and talk about everyone is statistical terms and such. Its RP, of a sort, but not even close to good RP.