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Just thought I'd recap the critical strike conversation here to separate it from the warrior thread. Some thing it should go back to 3, 6, 9 while others thought it should go back to rear only. The reason it's not rear only is to remove arguments incidentally, but we're open to hearing opinion.

Jared had an idea where the basic critical strike should be 3, advanced 4, and master 5 so I thought I would throw that out as well. That way those just dabbling have the 3 while the rogues are not penalized from where it is now.

3, 6, 9, is fine.

FH skills are ballanced by their damage/time as seen in both channel (5/10) and crit strike (4/5) as you can see from just that rogue is way more damage over time.

its easy to keep track of as every amount of time = the same additional damage. this is the same for all charge up skills. to deviate from that would be confusing and weird. also, a 3, 4, 5 would ONLY make those that just took a basic rogue splash ballanced, but rogues would continue to be stronger. all it would do is punish split classes, jack of all trades, etc.

if (4/5) is broken (and it is) then (12/15) is too, no matter how you come to it.

3, 6, 9 is fine

Why does critical strike need to be lowered? Other than the fact that you 'feel' it is to high. Give me a well thought out argument backed by personal experiences you have had since the transition at a FH/WH event.

I think we need a new call to differentiate crit strike from other calls. This is suppose to be a surprise type of call so some kind of call that signifies being surprised.

Why? Critical strike in its current form can represent so many different things. Adding critical strike or some other moniker to the call adds nothing valuable to the game as far as I can tell.

an empath needs 30 seconds to do 15 magic
a rogue needs only 15 to do 12

about half the PC base has at least the base critical strike. because it is a very easy way to do more damage.

of the people that play rogues that i talk to (and dont post on the forums) all agree that its over powered.

i have a better question, instead of saying "why should it be lowered?" ask "why should it be higher?" rogues got plenty of new bells and whistles with the update, increasing critical strike was not needed.

i dont know about a call chris, that might be just for the sake of adding a new call that does not really do anything, dont really think its needed.

It takes empaths longer to perform their skill because they can do so relatively risk free and their attack cannot be parried. You cannot compare the skills as if there are no differences between them and you cannot balance things without taking differences into account.

I understand you think 4, 8, 12 is broken as you've been very adament about it. That said, in the several years we have been playing with it, it sure doesn't feel broken while actually playing the game. None of the people who don't post on the forums have ever mentioned anything to me. We get complaints about skills at every event. I've never had anyone talk to me about critical strike since the change. I did get arguments before the change about it being underpowered, however. I mention that because sometimes these dicussions can feel futile and that you are not being heard, but when the argument is persuasive enough, we do listen and take a closer look and then ultimately make our own decision about it, which is how the change was made in the first place. I think the push back you are receiving from myself and Kiel and others is because it runs counter to our own experiences with the skill.

That said, I'd be happy to talk to those who think the skill is overpowered at the event if they come if that is a better forum to discuss their concerns.

Oh, and don't take Chris seriously. That was an inside joke for me and it was really funny. You'll have to take my word for that

SURPRISE!

Jared had an idea where the basic critical strike should be 3, advanced 4, and master 5 so I thought I would throw that out as well. That way those just dabbling have the 3 while the rogues are not penalized from where it is now.

I must be missing something since your stating 3/4/5 would not penbalize rogues from the 4/8/12 they have now......and even my rudamentary grasp at math seems to be showing that to be a huge penalty.


also, I agree the 4/8/12 is to much for rogues. If rogues had 3/6/9 and an assassin skill made it 4/8/12 that would make sense since the assassins are more combat orientedn that the general rogue archtype is supposed to be.
Hell even I took basic crit strike due to being tired of playing a warrior and watching run by roguings being responsible for the tough critter kills. Just seemed like the only way to be a squishie mowing warrior like others have eluded to was the crit strike, and sadly it should not be that way.

agree with above. (he meant additional damage 3 damage, then +4, then +5, = 12 when fully charged)

channel vs crit strike:

both can charge in safety, the difference is delivery, i will not say that the ability to throw things ranged is not a benifit, it is. however as with most things that itself is a problem.
you must carry around a satchell of packets
you must be at least a decent throw with packets
you must then recover packets

alot of people have gone to both great and in some cases in game expensive lengths to be able to deliver a channel in melee form, in some cases using a fist, wich is much shorter then the shortswords rogues often use.

you yourself have stated mike that FH combat is favorable to charge up skills, were often at least 4x more PC's then NPC's and have plenty of time to charge skills. rogues are very often able to land crit strike with no problem at all. and i think the amount of times i have heard an NPC use "parry" can be counted on 1 hand.

i think the amount of times i have heard an NPC use "parry" can be counted on 1 hand.

Two reasons for that. One, you haven't been to the game but a handful of times (sorry, couldn't resist). Actually, what you say there is true because we rarely allow our NPCs to have the parry skill. I find that players have more fun when their skills are effective against the things they are up against. It's why creatures often swing one (and some do not have the ability to swing for more despite what some have contended) and why creatures that do swing more almost never have resistances to skills like calm. If you ever do come up against someone with parry or resistance to charm effects you should be pretty scared of these things.

Did you ever think that the reason the rogue can swoop in and kill the big baddie is because they've been weakened by the warriors first? Whether they are swinging 9 or 12 will have no noticeable impact on PC vs NPC battles. Having played as an NPC through both skill sets, I feel pretty comfortable saying that. I do think it would have a noticeable difference on the attitude of a PvP battle between a rogue and a warrior. Now, not only will a warrior beat down the rogue (as they could now--still happy to playtest that with you if you like), he will have no fear while doing so.

i played for about 3 years non stop both FH and WH without missing an event, as well as running SH wich used the same rules for a little longer period of time. after wich we (matt, adam and I) decided to take a break. my entire familly and extended familly play FH and WH. matt, christen, and adam all started playing when carps first started, and i started larping as soon as i legaly could. (in fact a way of saying goodbye in our familly is "dont get dead" this started because its how we said goodbye to christen and matt when they left for carps) none of wich have anything to do with the ballance of the game

you state that it will have no noticable impact on the PvE situation, but that it will change the PvP situation, how so?

also as pointed out the damage over time for crit strike is .8 with now easy to aquire items or sage buffs this can be changed to 2 seconds for 6.

now i have and use crit strike in combat, even with just a sage buff it is 3 sec for 4, i can fight NPC's 1v1 and have time to charge, unless they are on top of me non stop swinging wich is a bad spot to be in no matter what class you are. its SO hard and so costly and comes with such a downside to increase your base damage in this system, but is cheap and easy to give yourself decent charge up skills.

and i agree with NPC's not having parry and why, i do the same thing, skills should work.

I know how much you've played, Josh. Several others have commented on you not being around. I was just poking fun in the same vein. You have more than enough experience to have a legitimate point of view and I wasn't trying to undermine it.

It changes PvP situations psychologically, in my opinion. The possibility of getting hit with something greater than 10 seems a lot scarier than 9, even though I believe the warrior wins regardless (the possible exception being a completely surprise and successful attack). It's the same reason why things are priced at $9.95 instead of $10--it just doesn't seem quite so bad. It in essence removes any fear element from the warrior at all.

But I know, you aren't talking about one on one fighting. You specifically are addressing LARP style combat where numbers are usually at least 2 to 1 in favor of the player base and usually the odds are much worse. Once in a while though, we have had even numbers. In those situations charge skills become far less valuable. We had a battle that was 8 on 8. The NPCs were mice (as in one mouse each and not tough). The players nearly died. Fortunately, there were a couple warriors with them...

i understand it was in jest, but playing FH/WH is a family tradition now i like the system, the players, the GM's and the ideas it represents. though there are a few little quirks that i must nit pick at.

i get that side of it but i still dont think its needed. rogue recived hamstring, dodge, and dive for cover. all of that points out that they pin and kill casters, the damage increase simply was not needed.

there are ways in game to increase crit strike, even if it was 3, 6, 9, it could still get up to 14 with a little effort, sure they have to devote a discipline but dont other classes too?

as for PC's being killed by mice. . .i have no sympathy for them

in the circle of death warriors fear empaths, not rogues. rogues should fear warriors. if its a problem with the new armor location increasing soak then by all means remove the location.

I think 3, 6, 9 was fine. I also think 4, 8, 12 is fine.

From what I can tell, the 3, 4, 5 proposal was cumulative and would actually look like 3, 7, 12 when you add them all together. This would lower the damage for people who just bought the initial level while preserving the upper end for master rogues. I would also be fine with that.