Rule Thoughts

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:57 pm

So I'm of the opinion that the game is going to be different things for different people. Some people are really into the roleplay aspects of the game and shun combat. Some people are all about the combat but not so much into role playing.

We don't tell the roleplayers to go play a non combat larp like Vampire because their roleplaying is cramping the fighters style and we don't tell the fighters to go play Dagohir because their fighting is ruining the story.

What's so cool about this game is that a lot of different playing styles are accomidated. I don't care what happens to the rules I don't think that is ever going to change.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:36 pm

Right.

This is a physical game and all things being equal the best fighter wins.

Evcery single aspect of the game can be modeled on math and averages. That's the way the universe works.

DPS is a start. it represents an even playing field of skill. (we can not make rule changes on human skill. so we use an average.)

that becomes the balance we move up and down.

Warrior can get four with out hero points easily

how?

Weapon special, weapon focus and rage.
4

that needs to go back to three.

hero points are not really part of the calc because they are one time boons. yes we take them into concideration but not for dps and total soak calculations.

as far as taking a skill for ROLE PLAYING, LOTs of people do.

My witcheater rewrote out for warrior to empath for one skill that comes up rarely, dropping his DPS and soak in half because the skill fit. it happens.

but we don't balance rules that way. we balance a rule for the twink side because the ROLE PLAYERS will not even worry about dealing as much as they can.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:49 pm

you answered my point cole

a warriors base damage cant get above 3 without a hero point

EVERYONE is adding a discipline in there, im sorry i didnt relise you got knight free when you took warrior, i need to fix my character sheet again

IF you take a discipline such as knight you give up all those other skills just so you can rage for 4, if you rage for 4 you can only use 1 weapon and nothing else, a big disadvantage per the new rules.
you also cant activate any of your skills and parry, another point forgoten it seems.

so your swinging 4, taking every swing that comes your way because you have no way to defend, at this point you are a 3.5 barbarian. you have to rely on your soak to stay up as long as you can.

given that NPC monsters are usually built to take on multiple pc's and must have the soak to take multiple empath booms and now rouge crits, its a fair bet the warrior knight is going to drop if they just sit there and slug it out.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:36 pm

You can still defend yourself while using Rage, just sans skills. It's the trade-off for +1 damage whenever you feel like it.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:50 pm

they could also be adding pickman.

yes, we have to think about discipline choices. Because it is that combo that brings warrior up to high. to four.

that's why we want to bring it back down to three.

four is a magic number, and we have seen bad things happen as you cross the three four barrier.

to sum up, warrior already rules. They have the most powerful and constistanly useful skill set. In a one on one, they will take a rogue. (of even fighting level) because the rogue has less armor, and can't charge anything.

Garritt · Post by **Garritt** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:08 pm

I agree. Warriors don't need to be able to swing over 3. Swinging for four, even when needing to use multiple skills to do so, is completely unnecessary. Especially when it takes a Rogue (even if it is a basic skill/ not taking special equipment into effect) a five-count to swing 4.

I always saw the Rogue (and Empath) charge-up skills to be "well above normal damage" in return for the time needed to get them off. I would feel completely fine with a Larp that capped standard melee damage at two(three with raging warriors), so charge-up skills could stay as cool one-shot attention grabbers, ala ":o What did he just run in and swing for?!"

Though.......just for fun, I have to admit that I wish we could have had a chance with the plan to gear up Rhul so he could swing base 10's in a combat.....Ambidextrously.....in Heavy Kandi'um.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:00 am

if your going to drop damage. . .

drop it accross the game

warriors knights should do 3 (as before, been that way for years, nothing was wrong with it

)

drop soak gained from armor.
drop soak gained from classes.
drop crit strike back to 3.
possibly drop channel if the new lighter soak requires it.

NPC side

drop monster damage.
drop monster soak.
make more monsters but weaker. instead of playing 1 monster with 20 soak, play 2 with 10, or 3 with 7.
as long as we the PC feel like were able to kill the enemy you can keep throwing them at us

i am more than able to get behind a small numbers system again

, but dont drop just warrior

Garritt · Post by **Garritt** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:59 pm

I'm just not sure why Warriors need to be a damage soak and have great damage output. Rhul has to rage just to get up to to 2 damage (as there is no way to boost dual fists, though you can easily boost dual and single weapons all sorts of ways).... but I get along just fine.

I always went with the thought that I was supposed to hold up the monsters while the empaths and rouges could charge up a larger attack and run in to fire it off, not just wade through everything. That's why I thought warriors have damage reduction skills.

Soak is fine. It's damage vs. soak that can get wonky, when both are high in the same build.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:57 am

if your going to drop damage. . .

incorrect statement.

we are going to fix the damage back to what it was. The increase was a by product that will be fixed

also, there was no corresponding increase when damage went to four, so dropping soak would be double dipping from the math pool.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:32 am

So I'm of the opinion that the game is going to be different things for different people. Some people are really into the roleplay aspects of the game and shun combat. Some people are all about the combat but not so much into role playing.

We don't tell the roleplayers to go play a non combat larp like Vampire because their roleplaying is cramping the fighters style and we don't tell the fighters to go play Dagohir because their fighting is ruining the story.

What's so cool about this game is that a lot of different playing styles are accomidated. I don't care what happens to the rules I don't think that is ever going to change.

A role playing game is meant to be a game here people role play the lives of thier PCs, if it was meant to be different things to different players they would call them hodge podge free for all games.

I think the issue here is that you(and I do not mean just you) misunderstand what a role playing game is. its NOT just a game were people sit around and have thier PCS socially interact devoid of any combat. a role playing game is a form, of entertainment where you you direct the words and actions of a fictional persona though events presented by the GM(s), reacting to the victories, losses, betrayals, and events that persona encounters. No where in there does that mean there isnt any combat.

However for some reason since the first time I attended FH, it seems the player base has grown more and more and more concerned over what "build" can do what. Its like its being infected with EQ and WOW mindsets where they isnt a scrap of true RP to be found. Everytime the GM staff makes a change the min maxers seems to whine about how buld A cant be as cool as build B and C.

Now I am NOT saying there arent great RPers at FH/WH, just that there seems, to me, that there is way to much concern about the combat rules for a game that touted being simplisctic and RP focused when I first attended.

Just sayin...

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:12 am

Actually, I think it's about the same.

Reid and Nelkie were just as interested. What you don;t have is alot of them posting on the rule thread.

remember we only have about 5% of the people post here. That's 95% of the players who could care less about the uber builds.

I personally like to find uber builds and nip them in the bud. (that's just me.) and I enjoy rules discussion. Kyle is like that too, he might post about builds, build he plays an OLD character. (hehehe.)

anyway, this is just discussion for discussion's sake, not a reflection of what is really going on in game.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:39 am

question then. . .

who thought it was a good idea to up rouge damage to 4 per level? as well as giving it better abilities? as i see it with the recent updates rouge has come out far ahead of the other paths.

and i dont just argue about the rules here, as cole said these really are just discusions for discusions sake, and only about 5-6 people activly post here.

warrior has two things going for it
soak
base damage

now i will go into its "special abilities"

-Hold Ground i urge every one that builds a warrior to swap this skill out because it drops you to 0 and keeps you from moving, in combat mobility might outclass damage or soak.

-Defensive Matrix situationally usefull, less usefull per the update as most monster swing base 2 or have some form of higher damage to circumvent this. you give up all offense to "maybe" take no damage, but probobly take less. as i said, situationaly usefull.

-Rage. . . .not much to say, i know some people that use this ALL the time, i know others that call it useless and switch it with anything else.

-Parry and we come to the warriors best and only skill thats usefull almost all the time. however, the only thing this skill does is allow a warrior to go toe to toe with a boss longer, nothing more. it only works to the front, only if it has a number, only if its melee. all those slowly reduce effectivness, its not a "resist melee".
30 boom, still works
sleep, still works
2 vorpal knockout, still, for some reason

works
any hit to the back, still works

it is designed to augment combat in the warriors specific feild of combat, nothing more.

now if you take away warrior damage, they are left with soak, soak alone is not fun, you stand there and do nothing, yay. if you take away soak, they have damage, but not enough life to fight in the front, you make a second rouge

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:24 pm

who thought it was a good idea to up rouge damage to 4 per level? as well as giving it better abilities? as i see it with the recent updates rouge has come out far ahead of the other paths.

This is supported by the math.

Rogue still can't compete with warrior in the field of soak OR burst damage.

not even with the super expensive 6 for for two, since the likely of getting that off is very slim if a warrior is pounding on you.

the old numbers did not fall in line and had be brought up. add to it rogues have a much more flexible build.

-Hold Ground i urge every one that builds a warrior to swap this skill out because it drops you to 0 and keeps you from moving, in combat mobility might outclass damage or soak.

Sorry, this is the best basic skill in the game. I have used this to fight off monsters for hours.

-Defensive Matrix situationally usefull, less usefull per the update as most monster swing base 2 or have some form of higher damage to circumvent this. you give up all offense to "maybe" take no damage, but probobly take less. as i said, situationaly usefull.

this is the the large soak skill in the same. It soaks 80% of hits. (your monster analogy is invalid since it's just not true. as a player i have faought hundreds of creatures that swing one and as a gm we almost tpked the entire town with them.)

-Rage. . . .not much to say, i know some people that use this ALL the time, i know others that call it useless and switch it with anything else.

This skill is GASTLY good and more than DOUBLES the DPS of 80% of the people.

-Parry and we come to the warriors best and only skill thats usefull almost all the time. however, the only thing this skill does is allow a warrior to go toe to toe with a boss longer, nothing more. it only works to the front, only if it has a number, only if its melee. all those slowly reduce effectivness, its not a "resist melee".
30 boom, still works
sleep, still works

this is the most powerful combat resist in game. there is nothing in any tier that comes close.

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:00 pm

Yeah. I'm gonna have to agree with Travis. I love Hold Ground and would never consider swapping it. I can drop to zero, pop a cure 2 potion, stand up and hold ground again.

Defensive Matrix is also a great skill. Even if it doesn't fully negate the damage being swung at you it reduces it by 1 point. For the cost of 1 LP you can buy yourself some considerable time as well as be able to move while using it.

Rage is also awesome because of the damage increase it provides. It does have some considerable disadvantages but so do a lot of great skills (Assassin death touch, Seer Sleep, 30 Boom...etc).

Parry is awesome. Hands down has to be either the best skill in the game or at least top 3 (With the other 2 being Resist Magic and Seer Sleep).

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:19 pm

i found it! the disturbance in the force, the distortion in the world. but im going to keep it to myself, nothing is going to change it, and the game is going to suffer because of it, but i will exploit it.

anyway, now that thats out of the way
parry isnt "the best combat skill in the world, unverse, ever, etc." and the reason it gets the title is. . .

its the ONLY one, thats just cheating, its like building robot taco and saying its the best in the galaxy. well thats not fair, its probobly the only robot taco in the galaxy

however, i will continue to post and debate here even after the following statement. . .

i am no longer playing warriors, i have found the secret and learned the truth, and i am hanging up my warrior cape for a new one