Ideal LARP Question 2

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:10 am

I like the chip draw in a non combat sense (raising the dead, etc). In combat it never added drama (we had enough already). It was just one more thing to keep a person out of combat longer. Plus, I'm not a fan of people being in or near combat trying to heal someone by having them dug through a bag. You had to dance around them and avoid stepping on fingers, etc.

And yeah I'd definitely stick to a timed deal (1 hour is easy). 9 times out of 10, I've never seen much happen at the end of an event anyway. PvP would be the only condition and you'd just give the person the leftover time next event in a location of their choosing (to discourage cheesy end of game kills).

Post by **GM_Chris** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:29 am

A sun set/rise leads to people killing a person a couple minutes before that time so they die quickly. The same can be said for end of game killing, but I would make a ruling the peson does not die if they can get to a healer or carry over the scene at the begging of the next event. Not perfect, but it can work.

We have always had a bad definition of sunrise or set, but regardless, if your goal is to kill another PC then why wait until a few minutes before sunrise/set? You would just killing blow them because killing blows are faster. Plus I just had a good story idea the world could have about sunrise and set. Somethig really cool woven into the RP of the world that fits in why people die at those times.

Resurection? I forgot to mention in my last post that I want it out of the game or at least out of the game for PC's.

I have two thoughts.
1) GM's will allow resurection in the case of a good story and it will not happen immedeatly (ie 6 months to a year before plot is run). Basically you can choose to work with the GM's over several events to create a cool plot to bring your character back.
2) Every now and then some kind of 1 use device will enter the game that will allow resurection. These devices will be wonky and scary and be plot drivin
with lots of consequences

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:32 am

I don't think the bag made that much difference in a combat, you still have to step around people because they are being healed. But it also didn't add anything to the healing scenario in a combat. It is the ONLY dramatic part of the res system though so I'd still include it there like Ried and Nelkie have said.

I definitely like the no skills for a time after coming out of negatives. I dislike sunrise/sunset things because it's not only very much variable depending on time of year but it's impossible to say when one or the other has happened. Is sunrise when you can see the entire sun over the horizon or is it at first light or is it once the sun can be seen over whatever obstructions are in the area where you are playing? Same with set, beginning of dusk, once the sun disappears over the horizon, or it's dark enough that most people need a light source to see details?

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:52 am

The sunrise/set thing would definitely need to be like 7am and 7pm (ala the vampire rules) to work.

If you really want the healer bag involved, then say after 30 minutes to 1 hour, the person must draw a chip for every 30 minutes they were dead. Again, with large chunks of time, a chip one way or another isn't that big of a fudge (as people will generally know when you fell, so you'd only get away with being on the low side of one interval).

Heck, I'd like the no skills thing for FH.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:01 am

I am a fan of this description

Day is defined as any time that the sun is completely above a level horizon; night is the rest of the time, including dawn and twilight.

Is it variable? Sure

To be honest your objestions dont make a lot of sense to me. All of you are use to having a bleed out time of 1 minue having a daytime/nightime actually gives you more time.

You seem to be talking about fairness and the system is even more fear that the previous system.

I have never heard of a problem of people saying "You know with the 1 minute bleed out time you could have someone die 30 seconds before game off and they never had a chance to heal."

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:23 am

We are just looking at the options and which ones can be cheesed. The 1 minute stituation can be resolved quickly at game off (it gets extented for that 1 minute) It can't be done for sun set/sun rise or 1 hr block of time.

As a mechanical mind person, I dislike vagueness in rules. I like hard and fast numbers. There are no arguments than. But I can see some possible neat RPing stituations where sun rise and sun set could work.

As for resurection, it all depends on how deadly you want the game. I do like the idea of being able to bring a person back from being dead a short time (resitation). I agree long term death needs to be plot drive and diffucult to accomplish. Death should mean something!

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:50 am

I'm just very much opposed to things like dying being tied to something so arbitrary. It's built in argument and cheese fuel. I can already see a player saying they steal a horse from somewhere, strap their buddy to it and ride the horse as fast as it can go due west so they can get another hour or so. Let alone if there is any type of travel in the game like the gates.

I'm not really talking about fair, I'm more talking about cheese weasel and argument potential. I know if I was trying to kill another PC, I'd just make sure it happened just at the beginning of dusk. That way they pretty much die immediately and then you have arguments of whether or not it was dusk or not. If you happen to run a plot just before dusk then you have the potential of players dying and feeling like they got shafted. Just WAY WAY to much crap that could come out of such a loose definition.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:56 am

Where is this concept of "We need to carry over to next event come from"

There is cheese because there is lack of adherence to the rules. We in our infinite compassion keep not obeying rules which muddies everything up.

The no bleed to death die at next sunset\rise is simple

NPC encounter happens before game off. You finish the scene resolve dead people. Your not brought back because all the healers went home well your dead. You dont have people hanging around for 6 months because there is no death from bleeding to death.

If you are in a fight PvP or otherwise and you hit negs at 7:07 am and sunrise is at 7:08 then you are going to die in 1 minute. There is no cheese there is no "its not fair" You know the rules and if you wanted to ensure your life then you know what you should have waited to enguage the ogre for 1 minute.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:07 pm

So who is going to say when sunrise/ sunset is officially at every one of those at an event? Will that information be posted beforehand for people so they know? Do you die at game off because the game ends before the next sunset? But it seems like you're set in your thinking of it being simple and uncheesable. I can't see how it's simpler than a set time and all I see is cheese and argument potential.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:17 pm

Did you read the definition?

The sun must be above the horizen for it to be day, the rest is night.

That is a simple visual reference for people without a time piece on their person. The cheese comes into effect only when the time is very very close in which case the official time would be posted just to squash any arguments if one happened to come up.

you die at game off because the game ends before the next sunset

Yes all unresolved characters in negatives at game off are dead. I dont see the issue. All games end when the time is up.

I look forward to how people think that is wrong, but before you do you must answer the following question.

"If you are knocked into negs on another plane of existence and everyoe leaves you there. Three years later the players return. Are you allowed to go back and lie there waiting to be healed since yo technically never bleed to death?"

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:47 pm

Yes I read the definition Chris, so you are going to play all your events in a clear field with a view of the horizon? You are only going to allow killing near dusk or dawn outside where the sun can easily be seen by all people involved? There will always be a marshall in all parts of the playing area to officially call sunrise or sunset? All the marshalls will know exactly when they should call sunrise or sunset? Without those and probably more precautions I haven't thought of you will have arguments of whether or not it was day or night, I don't understand how you don't see that.

The answer to that question depends, does that "realm" have a sunrise and sunset of it's own? Is it an extra dimensional space where there is no sun and moon?

I am not implying that people dying at game off is wrong, I'm implying that you are creating cheese weaseling right into the rules. Why would anyone that is trying to PVP do it any other time than just before game off? Any other time, even sunrise and sunset they run the risk of the arbitrary timing not being what they thought it was.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 pm

Well just before game off is always the best time for PvP in any system

Post by **GM_Chris** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:18 pm

It is not that I dont understand that people can be cheeze about it. I definitly understand that.

I am trying to figure out how much of an issue it is. Do I really care if the exact time was 7:07am and a person got healed at 7:30 am because no one had a clock and no one could see the sun? The answer is no. We are talking about death here so I dont care if things like this bennifit the player. I think CARPS we had a similar rule and we just added in somethinglike "at least 5 hours have to go by" That meant if you died close to a sunrise or sunset you had until the next one. I dont think that is needed.

Now if it is like 10am and they died at 5am then we have an obious problem. That is going to happen no matter what the rules are. I wonder when people are raising people at FH and you need to know how many hours you were dead that the truth doesnt get changed.

As for PvP it is not an issue. If you are going to PvP a person then you are going to killing blow them, chop off their head and all that.

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:23 pm

No it is not if the GM staff has any sence. I have seen it on many occasions the scence is post poned to the begging of next event for resolution. Everyone picks up where the scene leaves off to make it fair for all the players. Saying you are dead at game off when you are in negatives invites chess and will make many people disgruntal. If I got ganked right at game off and was offical classified as dead before anyone could act to help me, I would be pissed and probably would not return that game.

Here's a counter agrument, what do you not like about the set time period to bleed to death? If you are in negatives for 1 hr or longer you are dead.

It is a hard and fast rule and cannot be intrepeted any other way.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:31 pm

Chris, I agree with Temple. Sunrise/Sunset is a terrible idea, and one I already crushed in the multitude of vampire rules already written. Ultimately, letting people bleed to death for arbitrary times is just weird (but presumbaly there's a World reason for this). I'd rather see one where everyone is treated the same no matter what time they died. With a system based on a set time or event you get the following:

(battle ensues near dusk/7pm/what have you)
person A kills person B.
group of B's friends approach.
group chases person A, but gives up shortly.
person B is healed up by group.
person A says no he made sure it was before dusk.
group and B insist otherwise.
no one had a watch at the precise time and since perception of time is distorted in combat no one know when things happened.
person A insists he started the combat before dusk and it took <1minute
person B says it took longer.

alternately:
person A kills person B
group approaches
person B being dead for less than X hours is raised.

at the end of an event:
person A kills person B
group approaches
if game off comes the rules can either be harsh and kill person B, or be nice and allow the scene to end.
if group didn't show you have the option of killing person B or saying some poor farmer helped him (ie you must killing blow someone at the end of an event).