Fist Phys-Reps

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:14 pm

Technically, "0" is part of the Wield Fist, but yes, it can also be used to let them know for disruption purposes. In the new reading of Charge Skills, you no longer need to call "0" to disrupt them, you can just whack the person with the phys-rep.

For this specific example, it's a bit gray but, if all you are doing is calling "0" for disruption, I doubt anyone cares. Chances of someone doing this are slim to none, so is it really worth putting in the rules? Perhaps an FAQ question.

Hmm... need to think. Might have to allow shields for another reason now that you have me relooking at this thing. This skill was a wordsmithing nightmare anyway.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:20 pm

Then what does the "0" of Wield Fist represent? Why not just say you can use a fist physrep to disrupt a charge (intentional prodding), but unless you use a skill (either rage or ambedexterity or anything that would add to melee damage) you do no damage with said fist?

And what about the other way around? Can you hold on to a shield, with no incomming attacks and charge a skill, then use it (i.e. Empath channel) through a fist? You're not really using the shield, just hanging on to it. If you can charge the packet, then throw it with a shield, why not a fist? (obviously the super Master charge would be nearly useless as you could't move once charged)

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just see a few discrepancies is all.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:26 pm

Give me some time to go over my notes, the scenarios, and forum posts.

If we remove Grenadier level 2, I'm not sure I care about shields. Then the wording is correct I think. I think Grenadier level 2 is the real problem child here and the reason I think I meant "single fist only". In fact, it very well could be the intention was to allow shields but when I noticed Grenadier, I thought I had meant no shield.

Not being able to use a shield with knockout, crit strike, and booms seems dumb to me, now that I think about.

Edit: nvm, found it. Shields are fine, I think. Grenadier level 2 is kinda broken until next season. However, you still can't combine it and Ambidexterity (nor rage). Btw, I updated my original dumbass post about shields.

For note, the descrepancy is I suck.

I blame Nelkie for asking too many questions over the weekend.

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:18 am

Summary

1. you can use shields with fist
2. You can use fist to deliver any packet driven attack
3. fist do zero damge
4. you must use a skill (rage) or hero point to do damage with a fist
5. you cannot block attacks with a fist unless you have a skill says you can. You will take the damage from said weapon if it hits your fist.
6. You can use gernadier skills to do damage with a fist by the rules. Should you do it, no. Is it a loop hole that was missed, yes.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:03 pm

'nuff said

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:13 pm

Maybe I'm crazy and expect that skills should be something beneficial to th eplayer and the game, but why would there ever be a skill that wasn't supposed to be useful at all?

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:19 pm

See top of page 2 and the answer is clear...

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:24 pm

Post by **GM-August** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:32 pm

dier_cire wrote:Simple rule. Taking sentences out of context and then saying they don't make sense does not equal a hole. That logic doesn't work in real life, nor does it here.

example: weapon focus. Yes, the single sentence is confusing when posted alone, but directly above this it say quite clearly that you only get the bonus when wielding a specific weapon type. The reason for the "(including fists)" is to avoid confusion whether someone could dual wield a fist and a weapon and still use rage and weapon focus. It can be removed but we'll get that exact question.

That 'logic' works in real life all the time. Its why we sue each other, have lawyers, and have tabloids.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand 100% what you mean. I'm not trying to be difficult or rude.

The original intent of the question was not if you could dual wield, but rather that it seems there are two possible applications for this rule. The first line states quite clearly (just as was mentioned) that it only applies to bladed weapons. The second line then states "including fists" which, to anyone who knows the rules, will understand the meaning behind the statement. I just meant that to someone who is reading this for the first time, or who is trying to learn a new skill for the first time, will get easily confused with this wording.

The rules were not written for the PC's to rule whore, they are not written so the GM's can try to screw people over. The rules are for people who have NO idea how the game works and honestly would be confused by a sentence like this.

This isn't the only place where this is a problem. Assassin Utilize Posion says that only bladed weapons can be coated in posion. It then elaborates that a bladed weapon is a sword, dagger, AXE, arrow, spear, etc. Notice the inclusion of an axe. Now lets head on over to Undead Slayer Weapon Focus Headed. Hey! Look at that, headed weapons include axes, maces, and such. Now here again is something that is pretty minor to the bulk of the PCs. No one is really going to try to use an axe with Weapon Focus Bladed, but someone who reads it for the first time before their first event and wants assassin and knight (and possibly reads it out of context) wouldn't know the difference. It can get frustrating for a newbie to get yelled at for not knowing the rules when they think they do.

Back on topic, sorry. I do not have a rewording for the skill, but I would like to say I think it should be rewritten so the 'spirit' is clearly understood, that is all.

BTW, I'm very thankful for all the work that has been put into the rules lately, and the fact that people can deal with my questions without wanting to tear me to pieces. At least I think they dont... eeps!

Thanks!

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:14 pm

I really don't see the issue. You are reading it as if the (including fists) portion has anything to do with the weapon you are using weapon focus with. It doesn't. It's there to say "no you can't wield a fist and a weapon and use rage with a weapon focus". I really doubt anyone will ever get confused over this.

As for assassin and knight with an axe, um... no. Knight say specifcally "sword or non-throwing dagger". Axes are neither. This is not a loophole or point of confusion. As for assassin being confusing on the "etc", that's what a forum is for.

For note: a bunch of this has gone into notes to look into for next year.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:07 pm

An axe is both bladed and headed, it's like a polearm, they're bladed so you can coat them and they're a polearm so you can do a 5 vorpal(pikeman) poison(assasin) with it. If you happened to have one of those hammers on a long stick, it would be, blunt, headed and a polearm.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:28 pm

a polehammer. a real weapon at that.

JonathanBreygan · Post by **JonathanBreygan** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:17 am

I think they were called lucern hammers.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:51 am

Last I checked, you weren't allowed to deal 3 all day long with a shield by having a poleaxe, weapon focus headed and weapon focus polearm.

Apparently, the whole bladed, headed, blunt needs to go in favor of you get a bonus with X, Y, and Z.

JonathanBreygan · Post by **JonathanBreygan** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:47 am

I may be wrong so please correct me if I am but, isn't the only way to get more than one weapon focus is by going pikeman/witch hunter (polearm/headed)? I thought it was set up like this so you couldn't do that.

Privleged-Knight-Bladed

Common-Pikeman-Polearm
Undead Slayer-Headed

Savage-Beast Hunter-Polearm

Until I read this and started thinking about it I didn't even realize that there were 2 disiplines in the same lifestyle that had Weapon Focus.

I personally don't see a problem with someone doing such if they chose to but, I don't see the attraction to it. It doesn't seem that it would make an interesting-to-play character from an R.P. stand point seeings as though the character would be focused only on bettering themselves to find more effective ways of killing things and there for not really have any type of people skills or personality.

Just my thoughts.