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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:10 pm
by NewGuy
cole45 wrote:because parry will be used every single fight, but counter-spell is only useful is someone else casts.
Additionally, You don't have to research/find/trade for skills like rage and channel that are going to be used until the cows come home. You buy it, it's yours.

Craftsmen have access to a limitless number of skills, with enough time invested into it, allowing them to make passive magic items (that's really what exotic are)

I think 50 to 100 per rank is a high, and somewhere around 25to could be feasible. Since we've done away with spell books, we could impliment a 'memory' system. Off the number of spells you've purchased with skill points for each rank, pick the spells you want to cast that event, or day, scene, or however it's decided BEFOREHAND and you can't change it with any amount of meditation and study.

There's so many ways to come to a solution, we can't impliment every suggestion, but we can brainstorm different means to an end.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:36 pm
by GM_Chris
I may not be clear so I will try an elaborate. Final haven only has so many effects it can create as can any LARP. FH is a bit on the low side due to reduced calls.

So yes your example about counter spell is correct in that it only has usefulness some of the time similar to say the pick lock skill.

BUT

Lets say I have a spell called Arcanis overload: Casting time 30 seconds..caster can swing plus 1 damage until the end of combat.

OR

Energy Shield: 5 minutes to cast (buff so only 1 buff spell at a time) Spend 1 LP to reduce incoming melee attacks to 0.

These spells would be used all of the time, and if the situation did not call for these to be useful then the wizard will simply use another spell that mimics another skill.

Do you see this as an issue?

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:40 pm
by NewGuy
If the mage would rather mimic other effects than deal damage, go for it. I'd like to see better buffs in there, seeing as how they can be disenchanted. Leaf Armor for Everyone!

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:45 pm
by Zydana
Wait - is your issue that spells/potions mimic other skills and are buffs that can be given to other players and not just themselves?

And there's no way the examples above would not be gated with some form of magic/mystic components, brew times (at limits of # of potions brewed per event) and cool downs.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:57 pm
by GM_Chris
There is still some misunderstandings either on my side our yours.

I would definitely welcome an increase to the variety of effects in FH so please submit 100 potions and 100 spells (that is only 25 per level) to finalhavenlarp@gmail.com assuming you want wizard to be a discipline. You can submit 75 spells and 75 potions if you want it to remain a path and possibly even half that number depending on how you were thinking about it.

You can all work individually or in groups.

These effects need to be balanced so that if one person possessed them all it would not unbalance the game. I would suggest after completion of the task you have it edited by a rule lawyer max/min sneaky bastard you can trust prior to submission.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:05 pm
by Wyrmwrath
???????

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:42 pm
by Ark
niether potions nor spells should be able to be researched/found/traded for/etc.

that was one of the problems with the old system, even if a character died they would keep thier list of potions and spells and if cofronted they found/stole/researched them.

as for potions vs healing, obviously healing is better, but one does not need a skill to buy/find/or use potions, nor is the time per health recived as long.

Chris: i do however like the idea of spells that would give the wizard some melee power.

Wyrmwrath: there are quite a few spells that are instant cast time that only require a life point or a short cooldown, i have used them. and just because people dont does not make them useless.

of course parry is going to be used more, as a warrior your activly seeking to put yourself in harms way. determination only works if your in the negs, i have gone multiple events without being in the negs, do i still take the skill? heck yeah just in case.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:58 pm
by Wyrmwrath
The issue with the old system wasnt that the spells were found/researched/stolen...it was that the spells that were released into game, mostly through research, werent well balanced if balanced at all.
They also werent tracked properly once in game as to how many copies existed.
Neither has anything to do with HOW they were acquired.

Wyrmwrath: there are quite a few spells that are instant cast time that only require a life point or a short cooldown, i have used them. and just because people dont does not make them useless.
No idea what your rebutting....

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:46 pm
by GM_Chris
Im taking off for several hours and I want to remind everyone this is a brainstorming session. Please ask questions that help a person flush out THEIR ideas or questions of clarificatiob. Do NOT make comments that just down ideas.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:15 pm
by Ark
okay so alchemy improvements.

perhaps some of the potions that increase abilities and grant extra skills buffs like power of the vampire and feral instinct one should be weakened a bit but not overwrite a characters current skill set?

i also feel that we need more extreme mr hyde potions, that do overwrite your current skill set, but last longer then just 1 scene.

example of option 1

Hightened Reflexes: advanced level potion. User gains +4 Combat reflexes as well as the skill missle avoidence if the user already has this skill they dont stack, lasts until the end of the current combat/scene

example of option 2

Tyrant Virus :P : master level potion. User cannot use any skills, passive, active, or otherwise, and there body changes unable to wear armor, use magic items, or weild weapons. Users new skills are as follows:
12 life
22 combat reflexes
regen level 2 (half in 2 full in 4)
able to swing "2 magic" with shortsword length claws
press skill
determination skill
fear skill
immune to fear
immune to poison
immune to disease

user returns to normal after they either drink a cleanse potion or die, lasts until the end of the event.

EDIT: I have been mulling this over in my head and i like the idea of weaker per scene potions, and longer per event Viruses. because the whole "per scene" thing has kind of turned me away from potions that change your build.

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:25 am
by GM-Taki
The problem is that arcane and alchemical arts are intuitively unlimited concepts. They have been played (and thought of) as generally versatile abilities, previously constrained only by the imagination of the players and the approval of the GM Staff. Since every other path and discipline save Craftsman have fixed abilities, trying to balance spells and potions against them is inherently difficult. Moreover, since Alchemy creates durable, transferable items it poses additional issues.

One way to deal with Alchemy might be to move it in line with the Craftsman's model and limit its use by level of proficiency, time, and input of components. A Craftsman does not need "blueprints" to craft the various basic and exotic items in-game, it is presumed that his discipline skill imparts that knowledge along with the ability to craft them. Remove the Alchemical elements from the Wizard path, restore it as a discipline, and adjust the brew times and component inputs to create both scarcity and balance.

I still might advocate removing spells and potions from the skill system altogether. Recipes and spells could become tagged items that anyone could use, and their frequency of use would be tied to (and checked by) the material cost of the casting/brewing process and the time required to do so. This would side-step the issue of trying to balance the diverse arcane and alchemical skills against the static skill set of other paths/disciplines.

Of course, we could always generate similar variations and effects for the other paths and allow everyone the kind of versatility that Wizard enjoys. :)

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:28 am
by GM_Chris
Interesting you mentioned taged items. When we made the change in 2010 it was suggested that certain items go into game periodically. For example, a magical mixing bowl that requires a healing potion and after so much time outputs a different potion.

One event we put out flags that when found could be changed into potions by an alchemist.

Both of these suggestions would increase versatility without changing any rules at all and that would make the "do not change the rules" crowd happier.

Anyone have thoughts on that?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:33 am
by cole45
I am going to be honest.

I A love the the idea of component flags.

however. EVERY SINGLE time this has happened so far, the flags didn;t get planted. they were left in npc camp. :( I have doubts it would actually happen. if it does it could be very cool indeed. and a valuable asset for scouts how could be given the flags location'

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:39 am
by GM_Chris
We only tried it once. I was talking to Mike and my thoughts are we need to make sure the flags are orange and we need to train NPC staff to plant the flags.

In fact we are looking at having an NPC training either in person or most likely on skype to go over certain things that need to be done such as planting flags. There would be a sheet with tasks and as NPC's showed up they would write there name down next to the task they are doing so they can work with little instruction. This would help NPC's feel even more useful, give them a sense of what is going on, and confident as they will have training.

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:53 am
by GM-Mike
however. EVERY SINGLE time this has happened so far, the flags didn;t get planted
Just to clarify what Chris said, EVERY SINGLE time, except once, when we actually did it. :lol: I believe it was the last event last year.