Warning: LONG, even for me. It's late, I'm behind schedule and I didn't go back and redraft, hopefully it doesn't sound too hard and I didn't say too many things more than once. (Heidi Writing - 2nd draft = 1st draft - 10% to 30%...scary, ain't it?
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Ovak Stonecrusher wrote:You know we have had events where the majority of encounters were taken care of with diplomacy or talky talky or sneaky sneaky. We were told afterwards the event was boring...
So I guess I am agreeing that a balance is needed. Finding that balance is tricky to say the least.
And the problem is people being in the wrong place at the wrong time for the things they do, or do not enjoy, and be ABLE to balance it so that this:
General Maximus wrote: Don't worry, if you want to fight, I'll provide you enough oppertuites.
Doesn't have to clash with:
Zydana wrote: While I understand that some people like beating on things, I enjoy the kind of 'monster' that you can talk to or bargain with. I don't like the baddies that come in swinging for no apparent reason other than just to give us something to fight.
And the people like me who are 100% in favor of their always being more than one option and was really impressed with the diplomacy and sneaky-sneaky apparently being able to be pulled off (I am not familiar with the details, obviously not things for general discussion, either). NOT fighting IS strategy too. Be Proactive! (You're going to be sick of that word by the end of this thread).
I was at a lot of events my second and third year where it seemed like non-stop combat. That wasn't fun for me, and really kind of sent me on a long negative streak. Don't get me wrong, they weren't "lost" years or anything, but there were other things going on that I probably would have enjoyed more. I missed out on them because I got "stuck" on the combat ones. I am willing to accept that a lot of that was the fault of the character I was playing at the time; who went and did a lot of things that I, as a player, wasn't particularly interested in because of her in-character motivations. BUT! I was able to work on the things I DID enjoy, and have a lot of AMAZING memories of the great things that happened IC because I was proactive about what I wanted and therefore made up for a lot of the things I DIDN'T like.
I also try to accept the fact that if I go somewhere outside of one of the buildings, I may be attacked, whether that be plot/player or something else. I really appreciate the fact that I am very rarely "forced" into combat.
I started on a big thought (Too big), but it kind of boils down to this: Final Haven/Winter Haven has always tried to take a "realistically based fantasy setting" approach, both through rules and interactions. Rule changes have frequently used this as an argument in rule adjustments citing "immersion" as a reason. When you have combat monsters merely for "fodder," that argument looses it's merit.
Most things do not want to die, or risk their lives for little or no reward. They are going to want to take an easier route same as the PCs do. Even non-living things such as golems and undead have motivations (Or the motivations of others guiding them) and cost time and effort to produce. I politely disagree with whomever said that "just for destruction" is a justifiable motive. In probably at least a minimum 95% of cases, creatures are going to have a justifiable reason (at least in their eyes) for looking for trouble, whether that is defending territory, hunger, a misunderstanding, banditry, kidnapping or whatever and probably at least 75% of those can be placated without someone having to die. I put that 5% in there, because something COULD be insane or malfunctioning, but that's going to be a minority. That still leaves a good 25% that probably have to be fought/defeated in combat.
Another thought to remember is that this isn't an MMO where you slaughter monsters for profit...sometimes monsters have things that PCs can utilize, but based on the written-in balance, only so much can go out. I LIKE that, because it gives players an incentive to look for other options. It's a balance, because even someone really attached to their PC doesn't necessarily have enough sense of preservation for the sake of their character to consider other options without a "push." Thus, it's not worth it to spend resources and risk character lives just to "kill" things for the "fun of it" if you aren't getting rewards to make up for the expense. While I understand that people like getting resources and treasure off kills, it's not that kind of game and it should be special when they do, even if it's "only" something like potions or a resource.
It's also not meant to truly be a "solo" game, in most cases UNLESS (Big unless here) you are willing to blow some time/resources to do it, you really shouldn't be able to one-on-one combat monsters, although hopefully you can find an option for escape, talking your way out of it or just plain running away. But if someone wants to burn those resources, they should be able to do it without an NPC suddenly feeling that they need to "ramp up" the difficulty because all of a sudden it "isn't fair" to you as an NPC. I'm sure it's just confusion and adrenaline, but I've called people on that, at WH and and FH, (examples, not necessarily a specific reference) such as suddenly going from swinging "1 vorpal poison" (Which can be parried) to vorpal poison (which can't).
Preparatory action is still teamwork and strategy, and I HAVE heard a lot of dissension about that OOC in the past too...that using potions, crafted items and suchnot is "cheese." Just because it's a different form of tactics doesn't mean it's not tactics, and I really hope things have been resolved, explained and realized in that department so that both players and staff are NOT looking at it this way anymore.
To add to that, if people with the resources help out, Staff gets the argument that the fights are "too easy," but if the aforementioned people stay out of it and let others fight because things are too "boring" otherwise, they get accused of not playing nice, at least IC, if not OOC. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you feel your character would attack rather than talk, then you can do that, again, keeping in mind that your character will have to face those consequences, both from the NPCs and the other PCs who may not have wanted you to do it. It's the risk you take when playing a character, just as I learned during that seemingly long combat spree. Same as I'm sure characters who have been attacked for their actions have learned and accepted (And most who probably already knew their character might not live long). It was before my time, but I believe there is a case of a tribe of PC Orcs who eventually got killed off by the town for, well...being Orcs with Orcish behavior that was incompatible with the town's goals. I have since made adjustments in my character choices, in the hope that I can try to avoid things I don't enjoy taking up most of my time at a game and maximize the things I DO enjoy.
Angie makes a good and HUGE point though on being proactive and involved, both in-character and out-of-character. We've discussed it before. I will try to address a couple things here as examples and possible ideas on being PROACTIVE:
On the out-of-character side, if you somehow feel there isn't enough combat, you could always mosey over to NPC camp and either let the NPCs know that you are "looking for trouble" in a certain area (So you could be attacked, if there are folks available to do so - Staff can't just KNOW where you are, and it's not feasible for an NPC to just sit out in the woods for three hours waiting for someone to "happen" by when they could be running other things in the meantime), or in another scenario, you could volunteer to run a wandering monster for staff if you want to fight because you need the adrenaline rush or whatever. Don't sit around in one of the buildings all weekend and then whine because the action didn't come to you (Someone who said they were bored around two seasons ago did just that and I wanted to pull my hair out).
On the in-Character side, attack if you feel that is what your character would do. If you want to be involved in things, don't make an anti-social character who doesn't want to talk/work with others. If you feel you are being left out of NPC discussions, interact more with the other PCs and the NPCs. If your character wants to get into trouble, go looking for it.
In all cases, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, whether they turn out the way you wanted or not. Action and inaction both have consequences, IC and OOC. I feel that the Haven LARPs are VERY player driven, but as a result, you DO have to be proactive during the game and between about the things you want to do as a player. You can't always wait for things to come to you. You may get something (Oh, let's say a big elven army on your doorstep, for example) but it might not be what you want.