Kidwynn, good to see you made it back safe and sound. when you have a chance we can speak. *looks her up and down with a slight grin* Nice hat.
Sen's ok Kidwynn, atleast he hasn't poisoned any of us yet.
*chuckles slightly and gives Sen a slight nod*
Donovan, I don't think I've seen anyone verbally jig like that since my days in court. While Incarius can be very zealous I don't think he disparages any of the houses guilds in the process, outside of noting that people's allegiance is shuffled like a deck of cards. I myself made the same note when speaking with anyone that came to me about joining my guild, and I sometimes made mention of how the Crescent Moon came to be... under that tree. I think those things are of great importance when someone is considering who to give their allegiance to. Apparently the houses members allegiance isn't shuffled around as much as before, but there was a time when not even the guild heads of the house knew who was in their own guild. I understand why, to maximize each guilds potential trade boon to haven. I just have a very different philosophy on the structuring of any type of organization, whether it be social, economic or political. And who exactly is trying to "amass some sort of advantage over the rest of Haven"?
*Looks to Amagus to include this explainaition for him as well*
To me supporting someone or giving them your allegiance is much more than just an economic matter, or a matter of common jobs. It is a matter of trust, of beliefs, of comraderie. Maybe my view is skewed by my time in court but thats what I base my opinions on. ALL of the houses of my fathers inner court, which included many more families than Draconus would put their lives on the line for each other against any foe. That in my opinion is what makes for a strong organization. In truth, what I would tell you about the guilds in the Rising Sun would be much the same as the Crescent Moon, that we are trying to scratch out a living in a rather harsh environment and that our priority is ensuring a safe and prosperous place for all that call it home. What I'd suggest to you is the same that I've told people for many moons now, ask around, ask the people in the guilds why they joined.
*Atrum gets a very nostalgiac look on his face*
My original guild started out as a few liked minded people, all humans that thought that there needed to be a check for the elves and Kathryn specifically. Fear and mistrust in Haven was just as much a part of life as breathing then. I didn't trust half my guildmates at that time to be honest. We never needed a name or anything of the like to identify us, our common goals and beliefs was enough, still are. Well for the most part, there was one, *glances at Arthos Corbyn and Eli if Eli is around*
You 3 should remember Cyrus, I'm certain wherever he is he remembers you and the other 3 elves that were in town then.
The Forum.
Moderator: Admin
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Atrum Draconus
- Town Member
- Posts: 1316
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:45 am
- Location: Look over your shoulder... better yet... just keep your eyes forward.
- Contact:
*Kidwynn playfully smiles back at Atrum*
Thanks. I find the hat to me more...well...me.
*Looks at the person serving drinks*
Well, you know me Atrum we'll see if that assessment is on the mark luv. I had some old reliable rum on me so I thought I'd dip into me own stash.
Thanks. I find the hat to me more...well...me.
*Looks at the person serving drinks*
Well, you know me Atrum we'll see if that assessment is on the mark luv. I had some old reliable rum on me so I thought I'd dip into me own stash.
Dead pirate betrayed by Corbyn...ah well least I made him do his own dirty work when he killed me.
To Arthos:
“My conclusions are accurate - never otherwise.”
To Atrum:
“Yes, there has been much talk here in this forum, but interestingly few direct answers. Am I to understand the Griffiin Guild, Guild of the Town Guard, and the Guild bearing your name are built solely upon allegiance? That they are peopled only by those who desire devotion to one they consider greater than themselves? That to gain in strength each guild leader must strive to appear of greater worth than the others? Certainly the bonds of allegiance are far stronger than those of mere economics, and such guilds are unlikely to weaken, save through attrition, but more is needed to attract the unaligned. What, for instance, differentiates one guild from the other?”
“My conclusions are accurate - never otherwise.”
To Atrum:
“Yes, there has been much talk here in this forum, but interestingly few direct answers. Am I to understand the Griffiin Guild, Guild of the Town Guard, and the Guild bearing your name are built solely upon allegiance? That they are peopled only by those who desire devotion to one they consider greater than themselves? That to gain in strength each guild leader must strive to appear of greater worth than the others? Certainly the bonds of allegiance are far stronger than those of mere economics, and such guilds are unlikely to weaken, save through attrition, but more is needed to attract the unaligned. What, for instance, differentiates one guild from the other?”
Death is the threshold to immense possibility
*Snickers at Amagus's assessment*
Yes I suppose you may think of it that way, I have spent 3 years telling people that I'm just another citizen in Haven, in fact the only reason that the Rising Sun was formed under me is because others wanted it that way and my support is not something I give over easily, if at all. I never aspired to become a house head, but an alternative to the Crescent Moon was needed. I waited as long as I could before taking on that responsibility.
And your conclusions, atleast in these matters are opinion. You'll find that there are many of those here. You should also be prepared for most to be different than your own.
As far as your assesment of the other guilds within Haven, you couldn't be farther from the truth. Robin and I have never seen it anything like that atleast. There are some that will be drawn to a ships captain, some that won't. Until somewhat recently the town gaurd was part of my former guild, Incarius and I only seperated the guild into 2 for economic reasons. Those that chose to give their support to Incarius or to help protect toen proper went to the gaurd and those that chose to leave their allegiance with me didn't. As it's explained to all that ask, our guilds are one really, seperated only in name, not in mind or deed.
*He stares intently at Amagus for a few moments, almost seeming to look through his eye*
If you've ever sworn yourself to someone or something then possibly you may have an idea of what I speak of. Being asked to forgo that for any cause and under any circumstances are not something certain types of people will take lightly, then again, some will.
Yes I suppose you may think of it that way, I have spent 3 years telling people that I'm just another citizen in Haven, in fact the only reason that the Rising Sun was formed under me is because others wanted it that way and my support is not something I give over easily, if at all. I never aspired to become a house head, but an alternative to the Crescent Moon was needed. I waited as long as I could before taking on that responsibility.
And your conclusions, atleast in these matters are opinion. You'll find that there are many of those here. You should also be prepared for most to be different than your own.
As far as your assesment of the other guilds within Haven, you couldn't be farther from the truth. Robin and I have never seen it anything like that atleast. There are some that will be drawn to a ships captain, some that won't. Until somewhat recently the town gaurd was part of my former guild, Incarius and I only seperated the guild into 2 for economic reasons. Those that chose to give their support to Incarius or to help protect toen proper went to the gaurd and those that chose to leave their allegiance with me didn't. As it's explained to all that ask, our guilds are one really, seperated only in name, not in mind or deed.
*He stares intently at Amagus for a few moments, almost seeming to look through his eye*
If you've ever sworn yourself to someone or something then possibly you may have an idea of what I speak of. Being asked to forgo that for any cause and under any circumstances are not something certain types of people will take lightly, then again, some will.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
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Darrien Holloway
- New in Town
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:49 pm
- Location: Within myself searching for something lost.
*A silent laugh could be heard from underneath his hood as the dark figure finally rises and exits. You would notice there was no emotion in the laughter at all as it is was cut off by the inn door closing.*
A newcomer to haven.
If you ever look in his eyes, there seems to be an emptiness trying to break free...
______________________________________
"Your words are nothing to me..."
If you ever look in his eyes, there seems to be an emptiness trying to break free...
______________________________________
"Your words are nothing to me..."
(Wonders how he heard a silent laugh 
)
“Opinions are had lightly, conclusions are not. The advice I have given is based on long years of observation and experience. Heed it or not at your discretion. For the most part, however, I have mainly but parroted what I have heard, albeit in less cumbersome speech then the information is offered. And so shall I again now:”
“The guilds comprising both houses exist primarily to feign diversity and complexity for trade purposes. The guild leaders of the Rising Sun claim the loyalty of their component members, while the membership of the Crescent Moon offer theirs to either the Duke or the Preceptor. Perhaps even both. A confederation and a union may be applicable descriptions.”
“In actuality there is little appreciable difference between the guilds. Steel is Human only, Town Guard is perhaps something of a warrior’s Guild, and, of course, Thunder is devoted to the Arcane. Otherwise a guild is a name only – sometimes not even that.”
Pauses for a minute to weather a racking cough.
“Both Houses claim to promote the town’s best interest. There would seem, however, a discrepancy over just what exactly that is – otherwise why would an alternative to Duke Gravesbane and the House of the Crescent Moon – the apparent reasoning for the foundation of the Rising Sun - be necessary? Indeed, a number of veiled – and not so veiled – accusations of incompetence and treachery have been made this most open of forums.”
“The Houses meet in a Council to reach decisions concerning the town. But should consensus not be reached, surely one person must exert his will upon all others. By the descriptions offered by the Crescent Moon, the Duke has this final say. Is that true? Do you, or will you, submit to Duke Gravesbane under such circumstances, Atrum?”
)“Opinions are had lightly, conclusions are not. The advice I have given is based on long years of observation and experience. Heed it or not at your discretion. For the most part, however, I have mainly but parroted what I have heard, albeit in less cumbersome speech then the information is offered. And so shall I again now:”
“The guilds comprising both houses exist primarily to feign diversity and complexity for trade purposes. The guild leaders of the Rising Sun claim the loyalty of their component members, while the membership of the Crescent Moon offer theirs to either the Duke or the Preceptor. Perhaps even both. A confederation and a union may be applicable descriptions.”
“In actuality there is little appreciable difference between the guilds. Steel is Human only, Town Guard is perhaps something of a warrior’s Guild, and, of course, Thunder is devoted to the Arcane. Otherwise a guild is a name only – sometimes not even that.”
Pauses for a minute to weather a racking cough.
“Both Houses claim to promote the town’s best interest. There would seem, however, a discrepancy over just what exactly that is – otherwise why would an alternative to Duke Gravesbane and the House of the Crescent Moon – the apparent reasoning for the foundation of the Rising Sun - be necessary? Indeed, a number of veiled – and not so veiled – accusations of incompetence and treachery have been made this most open of forums.”
“The Houses meet in a Council to reach decisions concerning the town. But should consensus not be reached, surely one person must exert his will upon all others. By the descriptions offered by the Crescent Moon, the Duke has this final say. Is that true? Do you, or will you, submit to Duke Gravesbane under such circumstances, Atrum?”
Death is the threshold to immense possibility
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Donovan Thynedar
- Town Member
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:18 am
- Location: With his beloved at the end of all things.
- Contact:
*Donovan laughs a bit and takes a drink.*
"No verbal jiging intended, Atrum. I'm just trying to make it clear that we don't put a lot of stock behind the guild structure. Yes, people were shuffled around quite a bit, but that was all book keeping as far as most of us were concerned. In the early days the Guild of Light was it's own unit and everyone else was in the Phoenix Guard, so which guild you were in didn't make a whole lot of difference.
Also, I don't believe that anyone is trying to amass an advantage over the rest of Haven, but as I said I have heard rumors of such. I would guess that people are once again putting intent behind words where no intent was supposed to be. If someone were to hear you telling the story of the night the House was founded, they might think you were trying to dissuade them from joining. Combine that with the constant tension among the people of the Haven, and I'd wager one or two retellings would warp the truth you said into the rumor I heard.
Yes, the first act of the House of the Crescent Moon was to issue a harsh ultimatum to the Orcs, but its foundation had been many moons in the making. Moreover, the members of the House have always fought to preserve and protect the Haven - just as the members of the House of the Rising Sun have. Truth be told, most of us have darker aspects in our past. Yes, Corbyn used to have a torture room. Yes, Atrum used to kill people. Yes, Arthos nearly caused a war with some dwarves. Yes, Robin used to be a privateer. Yes, I once turned a man's skull into a drinking cup. All of these things are part of our past, but they do not define us."
*Donovan laughs a bit*
"Hell, if you want to talk about the past, there were once serious tensions between the Phoenix Guard and the Guild of Light. An argument that started during my rescue from Bear almost brought people to blows. For days afterward Curufin and Kabre were scheeming about how they could take down Ka, who now stands as one of our closest friends. We cannot let these shadows of our history cloud our vision for the future. All of us are in this, together, for a long time to come."
*Donovan turns to Amagus.*
"I see your point in regards to guilds, Amagus, and your conclusions and opinions are yours to keep or share, but you've made some statements that are simply untrue. More importantly, you've made them in such a way as to imply malice or impropriety - and that is simply not the case. There is not and has never been any intent to feign diversity or complexity by the guilds in the House of the Crescent Moon, and I would say the same of those in the House of the Rising Sun. We do not deceive merchants or Havenites. Our purposes and methods are transparent, and there is no baiting of either recruits or trade partners.
Guilds are currently essential to the economy of this land, but it seems that some people hold them in higher regard than others. You seem to advocate a system in which people organize themselves into groups based off of unifying purposes and prosper as guilds. I would like to let guild structure remain an afterthought and sponsor that same level of unity and camaraderie throughout the Haven. We are not so many that we cannot come together as one, but that is just my opinion.
There is still a great deal of confusion about how authority works here in the Haven. We're currently working on both coming together as one and finding a structure we all can agree on, an effort that has been years in the making. I'm hoping that it will be much clearer in the very near future."
"No verbal jiging intended, Atrum. I'm just trying to make it clear that we don't put a lot of stock behind the guild structure. Yes, people were shuffled around quite a bit, but that was all book keeping as far as most of us were concerned. In the early days the Guild of Light was it's own unit and everyone else was in the Phoenix Guard, so which guild you were in didn't make a whole lot of difference.
Also, I don't believe that anyone is trying to amass an advantage over the rest of Haven, but as I said I have heard rumors of such. I would guess that people are once again putting intent behind words where no intent was supposed to be. If someone were to hear you telling the story of the night the House was founded, they might think you were trying to dissuade them from joining. Combine that with the constant tension among the people of the Haven, and I'd wager one or two retellings would warp the truth you said into the rumor I heard.
Yes, the first act of the House of the Crescent Moon was to issue a harsh ultimatum to the Orcs, but its foundation had been many moons in the making. Moreover, the members of the House have always fought to preserve and protect the Haven - just as the members of the House of the Rising Sun have. Truth be told, most of us have darker aspects in our past. Yes, Corbyn used to have a torture room. Yes, Atrum used to kill people. Yes, Arthos nearly caused a war with some dwarves. Yes, Robin used to be a privateer. Yes, I once turned a man's skull into a drinking cup. All of these things are part of our past, but they do not define us."
*Donovan laughs a bit*
"Hell, if you want to talk about the past, there were once serious tensions between the Phoenix Guard and the Guild of Light. An argument that started during my rescue from Bear almost brought people to blows. For days afterward Curufin and Kabre were scheeming about how they could take down Ka, who now stands as one of our closest friends. We cannot let these shadows of our history cloud our vision for the future. All of us are in this, together, for a long time to come."
*Donovan turns to Amagus.*
"I see your point in regards to guilds, Amagus, and your conclusions and opinions are yours to keep or share, but you've made some statements that are simply untrue. More importantly, you've made them in such a way as to imply malice or impropriety - and that is simply not the case. There is not and has never been any intent to feign diversity or complexity by the guilds in the House of the Crescent Moon, and I would say the same of those in the House of the Rising Sun. We do not deceive merchants or Havenites. Our purposes and methods are transparent, and there is no baiting of either recruits or trade partners.
Guilds are currently essential to the economy of this land, but it seems that some people hold them in higher regard than others. You seem to advocate a system in which people organize themselves into groups based off of unifying purposes and prosper as guilds. I would like to let guild structure remain an afterthought and sponsor that same level of unity and camaraderie throughout the Haven. We are not so many that we cannot come together as one, but that is just my opinion.
There is still a great deal of confusion about how authority works here in the Haven. We're currently working on both coming together as one and finding a structure we all can agree on, an effort that has been years in the making. I'm hoping that it will be much clearer in the very near future."
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
“No deception intended? Consider the House of Crescent Moon. Most of its membership seem content to consider themselves of the House first, and of their guilds second. Indeed, the guilds within seem formed with little purpose other than providing outside merchants with names differing from that of the House, itself. For what reason is this, if not deception?”
Death is the threshold to immense possibility
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Eilonwy
- Town Member
- Posts: 263
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:00 pm
- Location: Drinking the bloody visions away.
From her usual position of leaning on a pillar, Eilonwy's face remains still though her eyes easily show a rapid shifting of emotions as the discussion continues. Sometimes, the corner of her mouth seems to twitch as though holding back a smile. Other times, her eyes darken with thought.
Barely audible, "Poor mother. Now I see where her frustration with politics and order comes. I wonder how many more circles they will dance in this discussion..."
Barely audible, "Poor mother. Now I see where her frustration with politics and order comes. I wonder how many more circles they will dance in this discussion..."
E. E. Nightshade of Clan Campbell
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Donovan Thynedar
- Town Member
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:18 am
- Location: With his beloved at the end of all things.
- Contact:
"As I said, Amagus, the guilds exist as an economic necessity. It is common knowledge that they are of the House. Once again, there is no deception.
I also don't know why some people believe that a system of guilds is the only way to create order. It certainly takes collective effort to secure resources and trading partners, but there is no reason why our division of labor or trade should stand as our structure of authority. As I think on it, I find the limitations of a guild structure increasingly distasteful. It almost encourages conflict among us by suggesting we cannot secure resources without segregating ourselves by race, profession, or interest. Such divisive tactics have been the tools of tyrants and instigators since time immemorial. Perhaps it's time we found another way..."
*His words trail off, as he is clearly lost in thought. He looks up at Eilonwy when she speaks, aware that she has said something but too far away to hear what was said. Shaking his head slightly to clear his thoughts, he sits back in his chair.*
"I'm sorry Eilonwy, I couldn't hear you. Did you have a question?"
I also don't know why some people believe that a system of guilds is the only way to create order. It certainly takes collective effort to secure resources and trading partners, but there is no reason why our division of labor or trade should stand as our structure of authority. As I think on it, I find the limitations of a guild structure increasingly distasteful. It almost encourages conflict among us by suggesting we cannot secure resources without segregating ourselves by race, profession, or interest. Such divisive tactics have been the tools of tyrants and instigators since time immemorial. Perhaps it's time we found another way..."
*His words trail off, as he is clearly lost in thought. He looks up at Eilonwy when she speaks, aware that she has said something but too far away to hear what was said. Shaking his head slightly to clear his thoughts, he sits back in his chair.*
"I'm sorry Eilonwy, I couldn't hear you. Did you have a question?"
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
-
Eilonwy
- Town Member
- Posts: 263
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:00 pm
- Location: Drinking the bloody visions away.
Eilonwy shakes her head, eyes intent on Donovan's.
In her low, soft voice, "I apologize for speaking mere musings aloud, sir. 'Tis a bad habit learned when alone too much. This forum has helped me understand a dear one better, that is all. She is very impatient with politics and order."
Pauses briefly.
" As for thy current train of thought, I would support the avoidance of tyranny. Also, new ideas should be allowed to flow and be heard always. Even if those ideas are elusive to find at first, I find it preferable to allowing old ones to stagnate. Not all will maybe, but why not re-assess them every now and then? As people come and go here, the fresh perspectives may bring answers, even to thy guild question in time."
Eilonwy's hair swings forward to shield her face as her head bows shyly.
"Forgive the interruption."
In her low, soft voice, "I apologize for speaking mere musings aloud, sir. 'Tis a bad habit learned when alone too much. This forum has helped me understand a dear one better, that is all. She is very impatient with politics and order."
Pauses briefly.
" As for thy current train of thought, I would support the avoidance of tyranny. Also, new ideas should be allowed to flow and be heard always. Even if those ideas are elusive to find at first, I find it preferable to allowing old ones to stagnate. Not all will maybe, but why not re-assess them every now and then? As people come and go here, the fresh perspectives may bring answers, even to thy guild question in time."
Eilonwy's hair swings forward to shield her face as her head bows shyly.
"Forgive the interruption."
E. E. Nightshade of Clan Campbell
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Donovan Thynedar
- Town Member
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:18 am
- Location: With his beloved at the end of all things.
- Contact:
*Donovan meets Eilonwy's eyes and gives a knowing nod. His voice takes on a warmer lilt than when discussing the matters previous.*
"Your interruption is most welcome. I don't know who your dear one is, Eilonwy, but I share her sentiment. My taste for politics has run sour, but fostering the exchange of information is necessary - even if it is also frustrating. Some may see this as more of the same Haven politics, and some of it may be exactly that, but we have also had valuable discussion here. Questions *nods respectfully towards the assembled people and specifically towards Amagus, Erasmus, and Talana* expose hidden problems and misconceptions. Let us bring these issues into the light and resolve them peacefully and as friends."
*Turns back to the Forum as a whole. His voice remains light.*
"Atrum, I think Amagus had asked if you submitted to Duke Corbyn...
*He laughs out loud, giving Atrum a broad smile.*
"I'll let you answer that one," Donovan says, smirking more than a little bit.
*Donovan then looks at Amagus and mouths the word "No" while shaking his head, smiling the whole time. He then winks at Atrum, shrugs apologetically at Corbyn, and tries not to bust out laughing. He calms himself after a moment.*
*Amagus, please feel free to continue your line of questions, but with so many people talking, coming, and going I want to make sure we're not skipping over any questions that were unanswered. Were there any unanswered questions, or questions for which the answers were unclear? Though we're currently on the subject of politics, questions of any nature are welcome. I'm hoping everyone can leave here with the answers that they seek."
"Your interruption is most welcome. I don't know who your dear one is, Eilonwy, but I share her sentiment. My taste for politics has run sour, but fostering the exchange of information is necessary - even if it is also frustrating. Some may see this as more of the same Haven politics, and some of it may be exactly that, but we have also had valuable discussion here. Questions *nods respectfully towards the assembled people and specifically towards Amagus, Erasmus, and Talana* expose hidden problems and misconceptions. Let us bring these issues into the light and resolve them peacefully and as friends."
*Turns back to the Forum as a whole. His voice remains light.*
"Atrum, I think Amagus had asked if you submitted to Duke Corbyn...
*He laughs out loud, giving Atrum a broad smile.*
"I'll let you answer that one," Donovan says, smirking more than a little bit.
*Donovan then looks at Amagus and mouths the word "No" while shaking his head, smiling the whole time. He then winks at Atrum, shrugs apologetically at Corbyn, and tries not to bust out laughing. He calms himself after a moment.*
*Amagus, please feel free to continue your line of questions, but with so many people talking, coming, and going I want to make sure we're not skipping over any questions that were unanswered. Were there any unanswered questions, or questions for which the answers were unclear? Though we're currently on the subject of politics, questions of any nature are welcome. I'm hoping everyone can leave here with the answers that they seek."
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
“Questions. Oh, yes, there are always more questions. However answers are not flowing. No fault to anyone here, of course. The answers simply seem held by no one.”
“The guilds are a necessity, many have stated so, yet no one seems to know why. This is indeed a state mired in confusion. And no wonder! You flounder about, a collection of disassociated entities, gathered in a council - hoping to reach decisions appeasing all through consensus and compromise.”
“Understand this: Consensus is an ideal flouted by ignorant philosophers. In reality it is rarely found, and rarer still in a timely manner. Opinions are as varied and numerous as the population, and just like the individuals of that population, never identical. Those seeking consensus encounter only mounting frustration… and rage.”
“And compromise. HA! A popular and very accurate phrase states ‘a successful compromise is one in which no one walks away happy’. A compromised decision is, by definition, a flawed one. Compromise is the way to strife, and is almost never achieved in a timely manner.”
“If Haven is to prosper – if it is to be at its strongest and most effective – it must have a single leader who rules in all things and commands absolute obedience! Can Haven afford anything less? Would anyone dare deny this fact?”
“Yes, yes, we must avoid tyranny. But what is a tyrant? Again, opinions on this will vary from person to person. Is a King who keeps his people happy a tyrant? Of course not! What of a King who keeps his populous happy with the aid of slave labor pulled from a conquered nation? What of a King who wants to please everyone through consensus and compromise, but instead angers his people with his resulting inaction and ineffective decisions? He might indeed be called a tyrant – ruling his land with the iron hand of incompetence and refusing to relinquish control to more adept leaders.”
“Let us call a tyrant one who leads his nation on a path of self-destruction. A good leader is one under which the nation prospers. One who pursues prosperity with complete devotion, doing all that is necessary to achieve it! This is a leader beloved by his people. This is a leader of a successful, glorious center of civilization, order, and control in a world of death and chaos!”
“Is anyone here willing to step up to that role? Is anyone here worthy of that role? Ask yourselves this. Ask each other. If this Leader is present, he will step forward and MAKE it happen - for the good of Haven.”
“The guilds are a necessity, many have stated so, yet no one seems to know why. This is indeed a state mired in confusion. And no wonder! You flounder about, a collection of disassociated entities, gathered in a council - hoping to reach decisions appeasing all through consensus and compromise.”
“Understand this: Consensus is an ideal flouted by ignorant philosophers. In reality it is rarely found, and rarer still in a timely manner. Opinions are as varied and numerous as the population, and just like the individuals of that population, never identical. Those seeking consensus encounter only mounting frustration… and rage.”
“And compromise. HA! A popular and very accurate phrase states ‘a successful compromise is one in which no one walks away happy’. A compromised decision is, by definition, a flawed one. Compromise is the way to strife, and is almost never achieved in a timely manner.”
“If Haven is to prosper – if it is to be at its strongest and most effective – it must have a single leader who rules in all things and commands absolute obedience! Can Haven afford anything less? Would anyone dare deny this fact?”
“Yes, yes, we must avoid tyranny. But what is a tyrant? Again, opinions on this will vary from person to person. Is a King who keeps his people happy a tyrant? Of course not! What of a King who keeps his populous happy with the aid of slave labor pulled from a conquered nation? What of a King who wants to please everyone through consensus and compromise, but instead angers his people with his resulting inaction and ineffective decisions? He might indeed be called a tyrant – ruling his land with the iron hand of incompetence and refusing to relinquish control to more adept leaders.”
“Let us call a tyrant one who leads his nation on a path of self-destruction. A good leader is one under which the nation prospers. One who pursues prosperity with complete devotion, doing all that is necessary to achieve it! This is a leader beloved by his people. This is a leader of a successful, glorious center of civilization, order, and control in a world of death and chaos!”
“Is anyone here willing to step up to that role? Is anyone here worthy of that role? Ask yourselves this. Ask each other. If this Leader is present, he will step forward and MAKE it happen - for the good of Haven.”
Death is the threshold to immense possibility
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Atrum Draconus
- Town Member
- Posts: 1316
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:45 am
- Location: Look over your shoulder... better yet... just keep your eyes forward.
- Contact:
*When Donovan is speaking of the past*
What do you mean used to, I've shed much more blood for Haven these past 3 years then I ever did as court assasin. I never saw any action at all on the front lines and our kingdom was long established and my skills were needed extremely rarely.
I think I should clear up some misconceptions, I acknowledge Corbyn as Duke, he has had the support of enough of Havens citizens to garner atleast that. I and some others have chosen not to support him as Duke for varying reasons, that does not change the fact that he has had the support and organized a Duchy. Even when the council was formed originally I wholeheartedly agreed that Corbyn had final say on the matters that the council was to oversee. Acknowledgement of the facts and support are 2 differing things. So while Corbyn may be Duke of Haven he is not my Duke. If that doesn't make sense to any I can try and explain further.
*To Amagus*
So in answer to your question, in matters that pertained to the ongoing management of Haven, yes I would submit to Corbyn, in just about all cases.
*Atrum's demeanor becomes all business, the jovial side completely gone*
Now as I've said, your opinions are just those, you take our words and rearrange them as you will and call that a conclusion. It is simply your interpretation or elucidation of what we have stated in our own words. While you may indeed have seen quite abit in your time, no man or woman has all the answers and any that claims to is either fooling themsleves or trying to fool everyone else.
You keep saying questions are being left unanswered. What questions that there are answers to that have been asked have not been answered. Yes guilds in Haven are economic divisions for the most part, with a few differing ways that they are formed. The question of why they exist, to foster relationships with surrounding peoples and conduct trade with them. It's been said a few different ways but maybe those words will make more sense to you. The answers we have to some of your questions may not be clearly defined or acceptable to you, but very few things in life are as black and white as you seem to expect them to be and I'm sure that you have come across many explainations of your questions that may not be completely acceptable to you. If not then you may need to get used to that as well. You believe that your interpretation of governing is the best, 1 person that demands the subjugation and the obedience of their subjects. I believe that a true leader commands those things by deed and devotion and not by demanding it. You say a compromised decision is one where noone walks away happy and inherently flawed. A person that believes that he needs only keep his own counsel is in my opinion flawed, a person that is closed minded and arrogant enough to believe that they know what is best for all without input from others is flawed. One who believes he can do all things without delegating and trusting some responsibility to others is flawed. Just because something has worked in the past does not make it the only option.
Now as for answers to your last questions, Is anyone willing, yes. Obviously Corbyn is because he has chosen to attempt to do so already, and I have already decided that I am as well. As has been stated a few times already Corbyn and I will discuss that. Is anyone here worthy? That is not for that person to decide, their deeds and decisions along with the opinions of the members of Haven will decide that. Not you, not Corbyn, not Donovan and certainly not I.
Anymore unanswered questions?
What do you mean used to, I've shed much more blood for Haven these past 3 years then I ever did as court assasin. I never saw any action at all on the front lines and our kingdom was long established and my skills were needed extremely rarely.
I think I should clear up some misconceptions, I acknowledge Corbyn as Duke, he has had the support of enough of Havens citizens to garner atleast that. I and some others have chosen not to support him as Duke for varying reasons, that does not change the fact that he has had the support and organized a Duchy. Even when the council was formed originally I wholeheartedly agreed that Corbyn had final say on the matters that the council was to oversee. Acknowledgement of the facts and support are 2 differing things. So while Corbyn may be Duke of Haven he is not my Duke. If that doesn't make sense to any I can try and explain further.
*To Amagus*
So in answer to your question, in matters that pertained to the ongoing management of Haven, yes I would submit to Corbyn, in just about all cases.
*Atrum's demeanor becomes all business, the jovial side completely gone*
Now as I've said, your opinions are just those, you take our words and rearrange them as you will and call that a conclusion. It is simply your interpretation or elucidation of what we have stated in our own words. While you may indeed have seen quite abit in your time, no man or woman has all the answers and any that claims to is either fooling themsleves or trying to fool everyone else.
You keep saying questions are being left unanswered. What questions that there are answers to that have been asked have not been answered. Yes guilds in Haven are economic divisions for the most part, with a few differing ways that they are formed. The question of why they exist, to foster relationships with surrounding peoples and conduct trade with them. It's been said a few different ways but maybe those words will make more sense to you. The answers we have to some of your questions may not be clearly defined or acceptable to you, but very few things in life are as black and white as you seem to expect them to be and I'm sure that you have come across many explainations of your questions that may not be completely acceptable to you. If not then you may need to get used to that as well. You believe that your interpretation of governing is the best, 1 person that demands the subjugation and the obedience of their subjects. I believe that a true leader commands those things by deed and devotion and not by demanding it. You say a compromised decision is one where noone walks away happy and inherently flawed. A person that believes that he needs only keep his own counsel is in my opinion flawed, a person that is closed minded and arrogant enough to believe that they know what is best for all without input from others is flawed. One who believes he can do all things without delegating and trusting some responsibility to others is flawed. Just because something has worked in the past does not make it the only option.
Now as for answers to your last questions, Is anyone willing, yes. Obviously Corbyn is because he has chosen to attempt to do so already, and I have already decided that I am as well. As has been stated a few times already Corbyn and I will discuss that. Is anyone here worthy? That is not for that person to decide, their deeds and decisions along with the opinions of the members of Haven will decide that. Not you, not Corbyn, not Donovan and certainly not I.
Anymore unanswered questions?
Atrum Draconus
House Draconus
Hand of King Chimeron Draconus
ANNOSUS DRACONUS!
House Draconus
Hand of King Chimeron Draconus
ANNOSUS DRACONUS!