Questions about fists/claws

[Marcus]

I was wondering something about claws/fists, that's never really been cleared up- or at least I never heard it clarified.

What happens when a character is hit in the fists/claws with a "Shatter" call? Is there no effect? Does it go straight to armor?

I have always assumed the former, though I have never actually been hit with a "Shatter" when using fists. I assumed it was the balance of fists needing a second skill to even allow the bearer to block without damage, nor can wielding a pair of fists be obviously boosted in damage higher than "2" other than with Hero Points/Rage. The latter seems horribly powerful towards "shatter", when it's already crazy powerful as-is when it can destroy a whole suit in one hit.

Although thinking on damage- if you have the ability to use fists, can you utilize critical strike? I assume so, but again, never came up for me.

[Ark]

as far as crit strike, yes that works as normal. I recommend rogues carry a fist phys rep as anyone can use a fist, it cannot be taken away, and they can charge a crit strike through it. same for empaths or really anything that has a damage steroid that does not require a specific weapon type (ala the stupid pike impale)

as for shatter, I have heard this multiple ways by GM's

way one: shatter "shatters" whatever it hits, if what it hits cannot be shattered it does nothing.
way two: same as above only if what it hits cannot be shattered it moves on to shatter the next applicable thing the character is wearing.
way three: shatter "shatters" in an order, no matter what is hit, weapon first, shield second, armor third.

so I agree, like a lot of things in FH rules, clarification is required.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

From the core book:

Shatter

If the weapon or shield is hit with the “Shatter” call it is destroyed.

If you are hit anywhere else, your armor is destroyed.

added in supplement:

Shatter – LP skill/Reload
If the Shatter is blocked by a natural weapon that has a skill that can block weapons then nothing happens

if you do not have a skill that can block weapons then your armor is destroyed.

While I understand the reasoning behind on shatter destroying all 4 locations of armor in general, in FH each location is a seperate item which is unlike many games where armor is ONE item.
I could see an agrument that shatter should only affect one location at a time, or just the location it hit(which is no more difficult to track than wether it hit a weapon or not so dontcha start...)

[Ark]

lol, I had a slight shock after reading that, not over anything in the rules. but that there were actually really well thought out rules that cover just about everything. touché finalhaven system, touché.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

well no...actually...Ark its all a fabrication I crafted to crush your world view.....


die rebel scum!

[Ark]

that actually makes much more sense. //\;;/\\ (scary spider)

[Kaylan Chargeender]

scary spider...really? huh. Here i thought it was a bunch of forward and back slashes and a few semicolons....

[Marcus]

Hah, I actually missed that part in the supplement.

Though because the question stems from me gearing up to maybe play Rhul at this next WinterHaven, I actually think the supplement may have been updated since I played him last, which was actually nearly three years ago, lol. I think it was the "City of Sands" summer event. So not a lot of reason to double check the rules surrounding fists........

As an aside, full size beastman claws are friggin' big at "short" size (36")! My "fists" I just made drag the ground as I walk with them in hand. Travis was calling me the father of all knuckle-draggers, which I guess is apt for a man-ape.

It's a lost cause on the shatter, Brian. The "hard to track" argument stalled all my suggestions to make it location based, much to my confusion and disappointment. I already lost an entire suit of quality flexible heavy as Marcus back during the first event trying out the Mason campground, to a shatter delivered via "claw" swung (blindly) around a corner to connect with my shin.

[Ark]

as an aside to your aside I agree with claws being big.

I think a slight change to short and tiny needs to be made, as in some cases fighting with tiny weapons can become unsafe, especially because in haven you have to keep a safe distance in the first place.

I think the minimum of short needs to come up to 24, making it 24-36. and then tiny changed to 12-24, and then keep adding one foot after that for various other sizes. (throwing also being under 12 inches) that brings everything under "feet" and makes it very consistent and easy to reference, 1 foot, two, three, etc. (we currently have some odd "dead" lengths, is a 19" weapon legal? what kind of weapon is it?

at that point all natural weapons can fall into tiny (currently duel wield is better then fists, fists have slight benefits but not enough to be worth two skills, and back in the day you could only use dual wield in light armor making fists better for heavy or medium users, now that is no longer the case. and claws render everything else obsolete.) once sizes are fixed it would be slightly more easy to balance fists and claws against one another.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

It's a lost cause on the shatter, Brian. The "hard to track" argument stalled all my suggestions to make it location based, much to my confusion and disappointment. I already lost an entire suit of quality flexible heavy as Marcus back during the first event trying out the Mason campground, to a shatter delivered via "claw" swung (blindly) around a corner to connect with my shin.

that comment wasnt directed at you.

as an aside to your aside I agree with claws being big.

I think a slight change to short and tiny needs to be made, as in some cases fighting with tiny weapons can become unsafe, especially because in haven you have to keep a safe distance in the first place.

I think the minimum of short needs to come up to 24, making it 24-36. and then tiny changed to 12-24, and then keep adding one foot after that for various other sizes. (throwing also being under 12 inches) that brings everything under "feet" and makes it very consistent and easy to reference, 1 foot, two, three, etc. (we currently have some odd "dead" lengths, is a 19" weapon legal? what kind of weapon is it?

at that point all natural weapons can fall into tiny (currently duel wield is better then fists, fists have slight benefits but not enough to be worth two skills, and back in the day you could only use dual wield in light armor making fists better for heavy or medium users, now that is no longer the case. and claws render everything else obsolete.) once sizes are fixed it would be slightly more easy to balance fists and claws against one another.

I have been trying to get that corrected since 2004 ish...GMs dont seem to get it/care.

[Marcus]

Well,to be truthful I think I might be the only player I can think of using full-sized 36" claws from the Beastman discipline, because even I had previously used 24" ones. But then I saw how swinging for a base of "2" is actually pretty common nowadays, and I have to Rage to even do that. So I made a set almost purely for the comedy value seeing as Rhul is a giant man-ape of a beastman, and therefor it seems logical that he can reach out and clout someone from the next town over.

Will be interesting to see what the comically large "fists" combined with the crazy jowl-flap my mask does when I Rage. Just the mask alone once made a pair of NPC's both take a step back from me once as I (with no support) ran towards them. Add to that the fact that Rhul would rather be reading a book than fighting....

Thanks for pointing the rules out to me though, guys. Like I said, I played Rhul for at least a year or two before the expansion rules even existed, and had never even seen a shatter call as him, even after the skill came out.