I plan on getting the rules suggestion forum unlocked and moving some stuff around, but in the mean time this place looks like a good place for people to brainstorm what they would like for spell casting wizards.
Historical Background
In the past wizard spells were infinite meaning you could cast anything that was in your spell book. This was bound(limited) by making it cost mystic resources to cast spells. Spells had very long casting times.
The changes we made were to put the spells in line with every other path/discipline. We took out the mystic cost, double casting time (sort of speak) and then introduced focus items that have a mystic cost to bring stuff back to where it was originally. We then changed the casting times to cool downs so wizards could act instantaneously.
Rules:
1) Post your ideas anything will fly no matter how crazy
2) If you want to comment on another players ideas they must be entirely positive. For example: I really liked your idea about .....
GM Rules
1) Only post points of clarification or to help flesh out a player's idea.
Note:
Just because a GM posts about one comment over another does not mean we like it more. Also, we may not use any idea posted or we might use everything in one giant ball of awesome.[/u]
Wizard (Spell casting only)
Moderator: Admin
Wizard (Spell casting only)
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
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NPC Christen
- Town Member
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:25 am
Wizards had/have the possibility of being really both balanced AND playable fun. There are elements of both of the ways we have done them that were good... and others that were not so good. Having played both, the old system for a long time, these are my top best points for each system, and worst.
Old System Tops:
1. With the ability to research new spells, there was the feeling of the classic mage who could grow and have their trademark spells.
2. Diversity made the mage more useful.
3. You could 'specialize' as it were, in kinds of spells if that was your thing, because you could research new spells to fall into your 'domain'.
4. Each made was in charge of their own unique destiny, and had to work together to find spells one or another might have that the other's didn't. It made mages a kind of community, both inspiring competition and community.
Old System Shortcomings:
1. The spell approval / balancing system was broken. Thus, there were spells in the game that NEVER should have been. Magic in this system was labor intensive on the GM side, and often things got passed that should not have because proper thought and attention was not put into the consequences of certain spells going in.
2. Long casting times blow. Most of the time, because they required the mage to be stationary, combat had moved on by the time a spell was completed, making the casting pointless.
3. Arguments about the natures of spellbooks were redundant, non-productive, and irritating.
4. Being field effective was a lot harder.
New System Tops
1. Being able to actually get a spell off in combat is really nice.
2. Choosing from spells OR potions... also cool.
3. Mages all feel equal (though this can be a bad thing too)
4. It is simpler for the GMs.
New System Pitfalls
1. Cooldowns are TOOOOOOooo long.
2. Every mage feels like a cookie cutter of every other... no uniqueness.
3. The spells feel... stale and most are hardly useful or worth it, thus NEVER used.
4. Once you chose your spells/potions - that's it. You're stuck and done.
Now - those are just MY opinions and points. I think the new system could be fixed in a LOT of ways with a GOOD new spell approval rubric that actually WORKS. Rules like 'NO spell may mimic the effect of a skill' are good ones to keep balance and make mages not be one stop shopping. Limiting the NUMBER of spells a mage can have, but not WHICH spells they can have is also acceptable. Just some thoughts to get this party started. ^_^
Old System Tops:
1. With the ability to research new spells, there was the feeling of the classic mage who could grow and have their trademark spells.
2. Diversity made the mage more useful.
3. You could 'specialize' as it were, in kinds of spells if that was your thing, because you could research new spells to fall into your 'domain'.
4. Each made was in charge of their own unique destiny, and had to work together to find spells one or another might have that the other's didn't. It made mages a kind of community, both inspiring competition and community.
Old System Shortcomings:
1. The spell approval / balancing system was broken. Thus, there were spells in the game that NEVER should have been. Magic in this system was labor intensive on the GM side, and often things got passed that should not have because proper thought and attention was not put into the consequences of certain spells going in.
2. Long casting times blow. Most of the time, because they required the mage to be stationary, combat had moved on by the time a spell was completed, making the casting pointless.
3. Arguments about the natures of spellbooks were redundant, non-productive, and irritating.
4. Being field effective was a lot harder.
New System Tops
1. Being able to actually get a spell off in combat is really nice.
2. Choosing from spells OR potions... also cool.
3. Mages all feel equal (though this can be a bad thing too)
4. It is simpler for the GMs.
New System Pitfalls
1. Cooldowns are TOOOOOOooo long.
2. Every mage feels like a cookie cutter of every other... no uniqueness.
3. The spells feel... stale and most are hardly useful or worth it, thus NEVER used.
4. Once you chose your spells/potions - that's it. You're stuck and done.
Now - those are just MY opinions and points. I think the new system could be fixed in a LOT of ways with a GOOD new spell approval rubric that actually WORKS. Rules like 'NO spell may mimic the effect of a skill' are good ones to keep balance and make mages not be one stop shopping. Limiting the NUMBER of spells a mage can have, but not WHICH spells they can have is also acceptable. Just some thoughts to get this party started. ^_^
I agree that cooldowns are absurdly long, and can be mitigated somewhat with high level advantages, but suggest as an idea that casting cooldowns be replaced with reloads. It still limits the amount of field-wide explodies they do, but gives the mage with 9 spells the advantage over the mage with only 1 spell. As it is, a mage casts one spell, and they've spent themself. Sit on the sidelines, you're done. With a reload they'd get a much larger role in the scene, and once the combat was done, they'd have to rest until next Tuesday.
I like the concept of focus items, but not the implimentation. I think, first, that they should not be combinable with weapons. A classic wizard's staff or wand or what have you was used for the magic it held, and for a wixard to bring it into harm's way was a last stand situation. Painting runes on my shield and calling it the same rubs me the wrong way. Painting them on a sword and then fighting with it goes a step farther even.
Second, I think the bonuses awarded from them are backwards. I'd rather see the advanced cut the cooldown, and the master allow you to magnify your spell. Having anything makes it easier for you to cast by partially drawing on the items inate magic rather than solely on your own, and with a particularly powerful focus, you can ramp up your abilities.
I honestly didn't even bother giving any of the talisman spells a second glance. The benefits seemed quite low, and the costs seemed quite high. A sage can give you +1LP, and you're set, or I can give you that, and Press, but it's disenchantable, you canto lose the talismen, and if I die, so do you. The sage can give you a resist to use once, or I can give you one (assuming someone else already has it) that costs you double, and can be dispelled. If they're going to have a disadvantage AND a penalty, they should be something the player base can't get somewhere else.
And on that note, a sage with Augment get's multiple choices included, mages buy each one individually. The system just seems designed to drive players away from talismans in favor of other options.
I remember spells with 2 or 3 arcanists gathered together incanting, as the battle left them behind, and I'm sure it sucked for them. So WOO to addressing that, but they feel just as useless to me.
I like the concept of focus items, but not the implimentation. I think, first, that they should not be combinable with weapons. A classic wizard's staff or wand or what have you was used for the magic it held, and for a wixard to bring it into harm's way was a last stand situation. Painting runes on my shield and calling it the same rubs me the wrong way. Painting them on a sword and then fighting with it goes a step farther even.
Second, I think the bonuses awarded from them are backwards. I'd rather see the advanced cut the cooldown, and the master allow you to magnify your spell. Having anything makes it easier for you to cast by partially drawing on the items inate magic rather than solely on your own, and with a particularly powerful focus, you can ramp up your abilities.
I honestly didn't even bother giving any of the talisman spells a second glance. The benefits seemed quite low, and the costs seemed quite high. A sage can give you +1LP, and you're set, or I can give you that, and Press, but it's disenchantable, you canto lose the talismen, and if I die, so do you. The sage can give you a resist to use once, or I can give you one (assuming someone else already has it) that costs you double, and can be dispelled. If they're going to have a disadvantage AND a penalty, they should be something the player base can't get somewhere else.
And on that note, a sage with Augment get's multiple choices included, mages buy each one individually. The system just seems designed to drive players away from talismans in favor of other options.
I remember spells with 2 or 3 arcanists gathered together incanting, as the battle left them behind, and I'm sure it sucked for them. So WOO to addressing that, but they feel just as useless to me.
GLOMP!
I'd like to see a wider variety of spells.
CJ's idea once
He thought it would be cool to pick your spells at the beginning of the game and be able to cast those spells only. easy, pc goes to NOC camp, gets spell tags that have the CURRENT wording on the spell. They turn them in when they change their spells. (maybe game break or a fifteen minute wait? something or other.
Cool downs could be half of what they are now. It is super hard with out BOATloads of expensive magic items to even be playable.
I like the wizard PATH, and think it should stay, but frankly arcanist...not so good.
CJ's idea once
He thought it would be cool to pick your spells at the beginning of the game and be able to cast those spells only. easy, pc goes to NOC camp, gets spell tags that have the CURRENT wording on the spell. They turn them in when they change their spells. (maybe game break or a fifteen minute wait? something or other.
Cool downs could be half of what they are now. It is super hard with out BOATloads of expensive magic items to even be playable.
I like the wizard PATH, and think it should stay, but frankly arcanist...not so good.
Travis Cole
I think a blending of old and new would be awesome.
I like the new focus item/cool down format, but the spells should be something that mages gather into books like the old system.
To control the powers like the staff sought to, allow mages to research spells as well as find em like the old way, but all research comes from a finite list only the GMs have; something like a list of 50 options for each of the levels (basic, advanced, master) and MAYBE a few ceramony/several hour casting time type spells that may be usefull to confront the big baddies (effects affecting all the PCs but being small in bonus like 4 CBR/2 LP/1 res fear/disease/poison/magic for double LP...etc...).
an alternative research method would be crafting a list of spell components (as in range, casting time, area of effect, effect, drawbacks....) and assigning each a point value and making the researcher balance the equasion...even if by requiring LP loss/special casting materials/lingering effects/side effects). This , though cooler for some, lends to less GM control i feel.
*points to Christens post* What she said....
I am also not oppposed to the system travis mentioned about spells selected at check in, but I think allowing them to be swapped during the event but only with a lengthy meditation/study period AND some form of material or intangable cost.
I like the new focus item/cool down format, but the spells should be something that mages gather into books like the old system.
To control the powers like the staff sought to, allow mages to research spells as well as find em like the old way, but all research comes from a finite list only the GMs have; something like a list of 50 options for each of the levels (basic, advanced, master) and MAYBE a few ceramony/several hour casting time type spells that may be usefull to confront the big baddies (effects affecting all the PCs but being small in bonus like 4 CBR/2 LP/1 res fear/disease/poison/magic for double LP...etc...).
an alternative research method would be crafting a list of spell components (as in range, casting time, area of effect, effect, drawbacks....) and assigning each a point value and making the researcher balance the equasion...even if by requiring LP loss/special casting materials/lingering effects/side effects). This , though cooler for some, lends to less GM control i feel.
*points to Christens post* What she said....
I am also not oppposed to the system travis mentioned about spells selected at check in, but I think allowing them to be swapped during the event but only with a lengthy meditation/study period AND some form of material or intangable cost.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
currently most spells justify having massive prep or down time involved with the fact that they do interesting effects to a LARGE area. so perhaps some smaller spells that are maybe touch or single targe packet driven should be added that still posses leathal or effective action, but have a much shorter prep or down time.
perhaps even have large spells and small spells on seperate time limits so small spells can be used while the big ones are reseting?
also i really like capstone ideas. the premise that when you have mastered your path you are given a choice that defines the style of your character within the given role. i talked about disciple's in another topic, same premise
three nameless fast thoughts on wizard would be how they cast, im sure more can be thought up.
1) all the wizards spells are handled via a charge up time, but the charge up time is cut in half (count then boom, then begin counting again) standard mage chanting, gethering essence from the world around him and channeling it into a spell.
2) mage spends one life point per minute to reduce spell time, mutliple life points can be spent down to a minimum of 1 minute, spells in this manner are all cooldowns. this type of mage draws upon thier own essence to speed up and lash out with magic, though it leaves them tired and weak.
3) all the mages spells are handled via a cooldown mechanic, and take 10 seconds to cast, the rest of the spell charge time is spent in a cooldown.
there, 3 distinct styles of casting for people who want to RP a specific kind of mage. obviously these are just thought up off the top of my head, but they do a very core job...
...make people different.
perhaps even have large spells and small spells on seperate time limits so small spells can be used while the big ones are reseting?
also i really like capstone ideas. the premise that when you have mastered your path you are given a choice that defines the style of your character within the given role. i talked about disciple's in another topic, same premise
three nameless fast thoughts on wizard would be how they cast, im sure more can be thought up.
1) all the wizards spells are handled via a charge up time, but the charge up time is cut in half (count then boom, then begin counting again) standard mage chanting, gethering essence from the world around him and channeling it into a spell.
2) mage spends one life point per minute to reduce spell time, mutliple life points can be spent down to a minimum of 1 minute, spells in this manner are all cooldowns. this type of mage draws upon thier own essence to speed up and lash out with magic, though it leaves them tired and weak.
3) all the mages spells are handled via a cooldown mechanic, and take 10 seconds to cast, the rest of the spell charge time is spent in a cooldown.
there, 3 distinct styles of casting for people who want to RP a specific kind of mage. obviously these are just thought up off the top of my head, but they do a very core job...
...make people different.
A thought occurred to me recently about a lack of diversity in magic and I realized that there is a ton of diversity when it comes to doing damage to someone with a melee weapon. This diversity comes from the huge amount of paths people can take that augment/personalize they way they fight in melee. Has anyone thought about making magic paths? First thing that comes to mind to me is elemental paths; Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Void
Fire is pure damage
Water could mostly be deflection stuff like dodges and maybe some counter magic
Air could be missle deflectionor and some push back stuff
Earth could augment your ability to take damage through temp hit points and combat reflexes/armor
Void could augment spells you already have by decrreasing casting times or increasing effect or something.
Just a thought I had.
Fire is pure damage
Water could mostly be deflection stuff like dodges and maybe some counter magic
Air could be missle deflectionor and some push back stuff
Earth could augment your ability to take damage through temp hit points and combat reflexes/armor
Void could augment spells you already have by decrreasing casting times or increasing effect or something.
Just a thought I had.
I'm not sure how that would work in this game without changing the game entirely.
CARPS, the Pre-Final Haven Phantara, to my understanding is like that. You have different types of magics. In the creation of FH, the idea was to make things "simpler." To make that work, the world history between CARPS era and Final Haven era was that magic was formed together to create a "One Magic." Because of that, we don't have fire, ice, water, death calls or spells.
Yes, you can role play that you used to be an Essence Mage and some people play as Necromancers, but it's mostly role playing and picking the spells you want.
current spells have a 'feel' to them, but if you choose a spell path it's going to simply be for role playing.
I'm sorry I don't have better suggestions on how to incorporate that idea, but due to how the game was designed, I don't see it working well. However if you have ideas on how it would make better sense in a "one magic" world, I'm not going to stop you from voicing your opinions.
CARPS, the Pre-Final Haven Phantara, to my understanding is like that. You have different types of magics. In the creation of FH, the idea was to make things "simpler." To make that work, the world history between CARPS era and Final Haven era was that magic was formed together to create a "One Magic." Because of that, we don't have fire, ice, water, death calls or spells.
Yes, you can role play that you used to be an Essence Mage and some people play as Necromancers, but it's mostly role playing and picking the spells you want.
current spells have a 'feel' to them, but if you choose a spell path it's going to simply be for role playing.
I'm sorry I don't have better suggestions on how to incorporate that idea, but due to how the game was designed, I don't see it working well. However if you have ideas on how it would make better sense in a "one magic" world, I'm not going to stop you from voicing your opinions.
just throwing it out there. Realized there were a ton of Paths for the fighter types, but only one (I beilieve) for the magic types. adding a few more paths could be a good way to add variety to the game without changing fundamental rules.
The elemental school was just a top of the head thing. Im not really a spellcaster type and I havent played with the haven spellcasting ruleset at all, so grain of salt and all that, but I could see a couple magic paths with different specialties that open up mini spell lists to choose from. Since there is a learn/ unlearn system already in place it could even allow spell casters to change out spells, adding options to the system without changing the fundamental rules.
Like I said, just putting it out there.
The elemental school was just a top of the head thing. Im not really a spellcaster type and I havent played with the haven spellcasting ruleset at all, so grain of salt and all that, but I could see a couple magic paths with different specialties that open up mini spell lists to choose from. Since there is a learn/ unlearn system already in place it could even allow spell casters to change out spells, adding options to the system without changing the fundamental rules.
Like I said, just putting it out there.
lots of systems have schools or tech trees, its a good concept. but right now all the different tree's are in one list and you pick and choose wich ones you want, if you went with trees you would actually loose versatility.
however if there were say 3 trees, example: Support, Offense, Defense.
the different effect might be able to be more powerfull because you cant have massive defense AND damage, but do really well one or the other.
as they say in you dont get something for nothing.
however if there were say 3 trees, example: Support, Offense, Defense.
the different effect might be able to be more powerfull because you cant have massive defense AND damage, but do really well one or the other.
as they say in you dont get something for nothing.
Last edited by Ark on Sat May 19, 2012 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
okay so people want to do things fast and be helpfull to the group obviously so i think some spells should:
fast AoE buffs (ala the advanced warrior skill that gives you a 2 crush swing, but perhaps a faster count)
intigrate focus items into the spellcasting side of things (lower charge times, etc.)
multiple spell options per spell, example:
arctic blast currently effects a cone for vorpal damage and press down IIRC.
maybe a second way it can be used is packet driven single target for a much shorter cooldown or charge up?
you can charge up and blast and area with a sheet of ice or throw ice lances at people, casters choice.
more to come later.
fast AoE buffs (ala the advanced warrior skill that gives you a 2 crush swing, but perhaps a faster count)
intigrate focus items into the spellcasting side of things (lower charge times, etc.)
multiple spell options per spell, example:
arctic blast currently effects a cone for vorpal damage and press down IIRC.
maybe a second way it can be used is packet driven single target for a much shorter cooldown or charge up?
you can charge up and blast and area with a sheet of ice or throw ice lances at people, casters choice.
more to come later.
You can already change the casting nature of a spell with Arcane Focus items right now.
-Packet>Directional>Triangulated
or
-Triangulated>Directional>Packet
As of now it costs 1LP and gives a cooldown time to the ability, but the Master Focus item halves that cooldown. Plus they both give you instant "free" empath blasts that cost 1LP but are insta-casts.
I have ideas for both Arcane and Alchemist, but the sheer amount of "hand-wavium" I get when I put them forth has basically made me give up.
I would say make it so you can go down as well as up, so:Advanced Focus item: This Item also allows you to change any packet driven spell into a directional spell
or a directional spell into a triangulated spell by spending 1 LP.
-Packet>Directional>Triangulated
or
-Triangulated>Directional>Packet
As of now it costs 1LP and gives a cooldown time to the ability, but the Master Focus item halves that cooldown. Plus they both give you instant "free" empath blasts that cost 1LP but are insta-casts.
I have ideas for both Arcane and Alchemist, but the sheer amount of "hand-wavium" I get when I put them forth has basically made me give up.
-Evil always prevails when good people do nothing.
-All knight, every night.
-All knight, every night.