way off topic

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:13 pm

Chris explain to me how honkey is any different than witch? It's a derogatory term that includes a large group of people that can easily be subgrouped. It's been "taken back" by it's members and embraced by them as a term they use amongst themselves to describe each other. And as I don't believe any of you are witches or warlocks, you aren't a part of that group. Just like if I call my african american friend nigga, it's ok, even though I don't. When I hear other people say it I immediately want to tear their fucking throat out, rend their spine and shove it up their ass. I don't care how much I like them, I want to beat their ass right then and there. Some black people are fine with people saying nigger. Does that mean that the rest of us are? Hell no. But somehow, it's become ok for young white people to call everyone nigga. So am I wrong or am I being over sensitive and should just chill out because they don't mean anything negative by it. In their culture it's become ok, just like in geek culture people don't think there's anything wrong with witch hunter. If it was called magic hunter we wouldn't be having this discussion so... your example makes absolutely no sense. And no, you can't take an activity that the group is based on, extrapolate it, and equate it to the derogatory term used for the group.

And you can't say that because you don't use any adjective to describe the kind of witch people are hunting it's changes the connotations, that's absurd. If you really read that quote and come out of it with the understanding that witch modified by the adjective hunter means nothing unless it says neo-diabolic or goth or any of the other descriptors before it then we really have nothing to talk about because at that point you're really just pulling crap out of your butt to prove your own point. Or you are reading things the way you want them to read.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:55 pm

His point is simply that the term witch is also a generic term that has been used forever in fantasy lit and games and that does not signify any theology. It carries with it a particular image of a haggardly old lady wearing a black hat stroking her black cat and riding a broom stick, probably with a wart on her nose. When little kids dress up as witches, they are not even thinking about Wiccan and neither are their parents. They are thinking of the wicked witch of the west.

The same thing can not be said for honkey or nigger. These are derogatory terms. They have always been derogatory terms. Need further proof? Use my halloween test. If the little white boy in black face paint is asked what he is dressed up as and he replies in his awfully cute, yet to deepen voice, "I'm a nigger," there can be no doubt that someone in that family knew he was going out as something offensive.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:03 pm

Fine, then it will be a cracker hunter...

The fact that Chris pulled up an entire list of witches should make it obvious that this is not only about wiccans.

And saying that the majority of America is insensitive to it really carries no sway. At one point most of America was insensitive to the word nigger, it was just what people called black people. It was used in literature, it was an acceptable term to use in schools and on official documents. So no, I don't buy the it's ok because the majority of people have made it ok excuse.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:19 pm

Maybe I'll make a faggot hunter and bum cigarettes off of anyone I can...

And nigger does have a definition that isn't a racial slur. It means an uneducated person.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:20 pm

I was about to suggest we change the witch hunter name just to end the conversation since we have set the precedence that the name of the discipline doesn't matter, but if to change it means that there will be no cracker hunter in game, then I just can't do it.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:26 pm

But those terms are no longer used in our current culture to mean those things. The common usages are derogatory. The generic term witch is still used to refer to the fantasy witch. Is the Wizard of Oz offensive to those who practice witchcraft? How about the broadway play Wicked? I haven't heard of any protests to that show. I don't think so but correct me if I am wrong.

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:37 pm

I'm not even sure how I feel about all of this anymore. I don't know if I even really care about the term or if I'm just trying to be PC. I know at least one wican who plays the game but hasn't said anything about being offended by the term witch hunter. I know that doesn't mean it's OK but I think I'm gonna give them a call and see how they feel about it. I'm just curious.

I personally don't care. But that's because it doesn't effect me. If it offends an actual wiccan then I'll be more concerned.

"Haven and it's staff does not endorse, deny or support (through plots, roleplay or otherwise) the existence of any deities or religions in the Phantera setting. There are no large groups of organized religion on Phantera. We do not discourage your character from having personal faiths and beliefs, but because it can be a problem/sensitive subject, we do ask that you keep it a subtle part of your roleplaying, at best."

Oh...and I like this. I think it should be added.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:51 pm

All of my internet searching on "witch" told me it was generic. The quote was from that website I linked to which was just 1 of many I found that seem to all agree that the term "witch" without context is meaningless.

nigger, cranker, honky all have a context and that context is derogator.

I am not trying to be a but head here, if the term witch has evolved to a point that witch hunter is clearly offensive then I am open to a correction, but I really do not want to be hippocritical. I would then followup said discussion with the removal of magic from the game as I would see "magic" as something that is a mockery of something wiccan's actually do.

Right now though I am OK with magic in the game even though conservative christians give me crap about it all the time. Dont forget the bible says magic is evil.

Just throwing out the last little bit before people think I am all one sides on this

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:28 pm

LOL Mike, cracker hunter it is

Chris, the bible says a LOT of things that don't make sense or contradict themselves somewhere else in the bible. A talking bush is NOT natural, parting the Red Sea is magic, even if God is the one that did the magic through Moses. Raining toads isn't magic? So... maybe I'm the wrong person to talk to about what the bible says because I can just about always find something that is sort of ridiculous if not outright contradictory in it.

In quite a few translations the bible also says "thou shall not suffer a witch to live".

What I obviously can't get you to see Chris is that yes, witch is generic because it describes the whole category of people. It's like American, does American tell you anything more about a person that what part of the world they live in? Generic does not equal meaningless.

Truthfully, I don't care that much, according to the definition I'm a witch and yes it urks me but not enough to quit playing.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:42 pm

LOL I was just mentioning Erik that there is a large amount of Christians who would like me see me dump the term witch and magic all together that is my only point.

As for the bible comments I would like to point out that is directly offensive. That is like me saying I am going to keep witch in game because modern day witch beliefs are stuid and make no sense. NOWHERE have I said anything like that. In fact I have been legitimaly trying to investigate its offensivnes.

What I am having a hard time explaining to you is that Witch does describes a wide group of people, but It also describes a GREAT deal of fantasy.

Fag is a word that is a modern day slur and a cig. THe cig term is not used anymore thus using fag is rude.

The question is has the term witch risen to a point where when I say "witch" to a person do they think of a wiccan or do they think of the wizard of Oz and other fantasy stuff.

But again I am serious, if witch (someone who practices magic) is offensive then MAGIC must be offensive by definition. It would be like someone comming to FH praying to Jesus for their arcane rites. That would bother me, and thus bastardizing and mocking "magic" would have to go and I am honestly ok with that.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:58 pm

magic is fine, its fantsy.

i think witch is perfectly fine, like you said, wizard of oz and such, its a fantasy character, like a Siren.

though if it is a big problem (wich i really think it is not) mage hunter would be fine or mage slayer, or Arcane Slayer sounds kind of Epic...

i think all disciplines need more epic names

man at arms - Dragoon
knight - Blademaster
pikeman - Lancer

etc.

Goonter · Post by **Goonter** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:14 am

Atrum Draconus wrote:Maybe I'll make a faggot hunter and bum cigarettes off of anyone I can...

And nigger does have a definition that isn't a racial slur. It means an uneducated person.

1. This thread is going on forever... wow.

2. Don't be a fag hunter because everyone would run out of cigarettes if you're good at it.

3. I guess that is the politically correct definition of the n-word... less expletive than my definition (which is ignorant m****rf****r). Then again, people who use the word fit my definition more than people targeted by it. Imagine if the word was somehow deleted from human speech altogether; do you think people who use it would go around saying, "What's up my uneducated person?" Doubtful, but something to think about.

4. Erik, ROTFLMFAO at most of your posts on this thread. I know that they are not meant to be funny, but I have a weird sense of humor.

5. I could see people getting confused if you were a honkey hunter (is he going after geese?) or a cracker hunter (I think they have some crackers at the inn if you just ask), and if you really wanted to hunt humans of light skin color you would technically have to be a caucasian hunter. It's totally cool with me if you play a character like that since I don't play any characters who fit that description.

6. On second thought, maybe you should just play a human hunter, since technically, all humans are the same race, regardless of skin color.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am

I say we just switch it to Fanny Hunter. (see the UK definition...) that could make for all types of fun, but probably way less female representation.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:14 am

Chris I don't mean to offend you. I think the bible has some great stories that can help you live a better life. I'm truly sorry I offended you, I didn't think you were someone that took everything in the bible as strictly literal. I was only making the point that the bible does say no magic, going as far as saying don't suffer a witch to live but then has a lot of magic in it. I mean Jesus does magic, sure it's divine but it's still magic.

Goonter it is supposed to be funny and make a point at the same time.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:21 am

Oh dont think I am overy offended I dont really get all indignat and such. I just dont want to go down the path of poking fun at people's beliefs while trying to work on the witch hunter point.

OFF TOPIC
So you know though I do not take everything in the bible as "literal" as there is much metaphor, but I do believe the bible was god inspired and alot of it isnt some parable. It would be very difficult to get into this on the forum and it is VERY far from the point, but I do understand that there are parts of the bible that seem to make little sense. I also understand that there are apparent inconsistances.

I use the word apparent because many of them seem inconsistant due to lack of study (not lack of reading) or are taken out of context. A year or 2 ago I went to aethist.org and brought up their list of inconsistances and went through each one of them so I am not talking through some koolade high.

Where there are gaps, I look to the overall theme of the bible and then, knowing the character of God, I assume I dont understand the pasage yet. What I do not do is take a line or 2 out of thousands of pages and throw away the 1o00's of pages. I also do not throw awat the 2 lines I just study more.

So that is a little bit about where I am coming from.