A Modest Proposal (for everyone)

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:09 am

I'll make sure to bring my bar tub too, I have a bunch of mugs in there and I have to agree that your local resale shop is a great place to find good period stuff, just have to check back from time to time. And Silverleaf has a bunch of place that you can get drinks in the fliptop bottles, not to mention if you keep the bottle you can bring it back year after year and only pay the refill price. http://www.silverleafrenfaire.org/
What makes a great event for alot of people is environment, the more you feel like you're in the right environment the more you'll feel compelled to keep it that way. If it looks like you're just camping in funny gear for the weekend then most likely that's the approach you're going to have.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:10 am

I will continue to cook using my semi-period cast iron cookware. I will also being plastic garbage bags and ziplock bags because that could be gross.

Otherwise I will be happy. That being said, if someone finds some cool paper/platic disposables that look okay, i would be happy to bring them.

Amagus · Post by **Amagus** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:14 am

Oh, yes. Trench-mouth was coined in medieval times – referring to a rotting disease obtained from eating meal after meal from the same trencher – without ever washing it. So take care of your meal-wear!

Lambic · Post by **Lambic** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:15 am

Faerykin wrote:s why we go on and on about Silverleaf. Silverleaf has most of the stuff you can get at Holly - for a fraction of the price.

...

I'll dig them out from their hidey-hole, wash them and bring them to next event.

I know it isn't much, but it's free.

~B

Usually I would agree with you, but for the drinking horn, I've never seen them this cheap anywhere else. Mines real simple but it does the job.

Your attitude is awesome Bianca. Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said community.

Post by **WayneO42** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:18 am

Bink brings up a good point. Some people do not feel comfortable eating off of period dishes. Thats fine. Just make sure that when you are eating you do so in a manor that is non disruptive. Sit down and eat and then throw out or remove your stuff from the in game area. Dont walk around in game with your two liter of Mt Dew. When you need a drink, take a drink and return it to an area that is out of sight. If the bar is up and runnng, just put a tablecloth or something on the table and store the soda under it. No biggie

As a side note. I have pasted below an email we received in response to one of the videos on You-Tube. I also posted my response:
------------------------------------------------

I've seen the videos from finalheavenlarps at youtube.com. I must ask,
because I'm a "larper"myself from Sweden, are you guys serious? I mean the quality seems to be very very poor, both on clothing and roleplaying. And why do you have these spells? In Sweden we dont... Just take a look at this picture from a larp, or as we call in Sweden lajv,
http://www.larp.com/galadrim/foto/lykts ... igare.html

This picture is taken after the event, and that explains the dude in the
background with jeans and a beer ;D But You can see that the equipment, on the three fellas in front, is good. And this is a standard in Sweden. Do you have a larp standard for quality in the states?

I read your pdf rules thingy, and saw that you have a level system as
well on your events. A bit odd I think! It looks for me as you are trying to
recreate a dungeons and dragons computer game in RL.

Please tell me; Why do you have it like this??

Best regards!

/Rodian Galenthen Manziir, alias "Hille"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Erik,

LARP, like any other activity varies from market to market. The LARP market in the US is far different from elsewhere in the world. Many of these differences stem from the maturity level of the hobby. In the US, LARP is relatively new. It really has only been around here for about twenty years. In addition, the average age of LARPers in the US tends to be low. Just as a rough estimate, I would say that the US LARP demographic is 16-25 year old males. The principle demographic has little to no money to spend on the hobby. Those who do have money look at the equipment being used by those who do not and, instead of stepping up the quality of their kit, just spend the minimum to get on the field. This is a major hurdle that the US LARP community has been struggling with for years. We are seeing now though, as the LARP community matures better and better kit on the field. Also, latex weaponry is quite new here. We have only seen them start appearing in the market within the last five years. There are several LARPS here that do not allow them due to "Safety" concerns. This dissuades a lot of LARPers from buying them because they are not guaranteed to be able to use them at every LARP they attend.

Another major difference in the US LARP market is the focus of the hobby. US LARPS tend to be very mechanic heavy. They take more of a game-ist approach to rule sets. Our rule set is often harshly criticized because of its simplistic mechanics. If you think our rule set is heavy on rules, check out the rules for other US LARPS such as CARPS ( www.carpsgame.com) or NERO. All this goes back to what the principle LARP demographic in the market wants. They want action and lots of combat. They want to be a one person force for good or evil. They want a recreation of their favorite tabletop game. The most used system in the US for LARP is Minds Eye Theater which is just that, a recreation of a traditional paper and pencil role-playing game. The emphasis in the US market is character development through mechanics rather than character development through story. There are several LARPS throughout the US that are trying to change that, including our own.

This attempt to recreate a table-top gaming experience also pushes most US LARPS to be high to mid level fantasy. This includes the use of magic as well as fantastical races such as dwarves and elves. This high to mid fantasy level tends to lessen the drive to accurately recreate a historical period. In fact, in the US, we separate the LARP hobby from the Historical Re-enactment Hobby. The divide is quite great and those involved in historical re-enactment often look upon LARP with disdain. This often times prevents re-enactors from even trying LARP. This is quite a shame because they are exactly the ones who could elevate both the look and role-playing experience of a LARP. This also discourages LARP organizers from creating a low fantasy setting because they feel like they would need to compete with well established re-enactment groups such as the Society for Creative Anachronisms ( www.sca.org). The SCA has over 30,000 members and is celebrating its 40th anniversary. That is very tough to compete with.

The LARP market varies not only from country to country but from LARP to LARP. The main thing is that those who are playing a LARP have fun and do so safely. Each LARP is going to cater to a different type of player and deliver a different type of experience. One person may love a LARP and think it was the best event ever where as another may think it was the biggest waste of time they ever saw. It's all about personal preference and the prevailing preference here in the US is High Fantasy, High Mechanics.

I hope I was able to answer your questions. I invite more and a continuation of this dialogue.

Wayne Overla
Final Haven GM

Lambic · Post by **Lambic** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:44 am

What you wrote Wayne was very well put. I would add one thing and that is money. We're just on a different scale. I can easily see 2+ dozen people in those pictures, which to me means that there are probably more like 4 or 5 dozen minimum. Also Notice the buildings and such. We just don't money to recreate that. One reason is that we are one of 4 or 5 LARP groups in this area even if you count the whole state and push that number up to 24 or something similar (guessing), remember our state is the size of a country in Europe.

If we had 3,000 regular PCs then we could have land, buildings, and full-time paid GMs. But we don't.

One of the things I have always loved about role playing is that you didn't need much to do it. Paper and pencil and maybe one book and maybe some dice (last two are optional). Larping is a little more expensive but should not be more. That should not dissuade those that would like to have a library of reference books or a $1000 costume.

Requiring those $30 reference books or $30 period utensils detrachs from the hobby and community though, I think. (Sorry, I am repeating myself).

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:15 am

I'm with you. And so far everyone has offered to share their meal ware.

How about a modest proposal? Those who can get meal ware will, and those who can not will throw away/put away their items.

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:43 am

Holy crimmeny... are those real swords the three guys in the forefront of the picture are sporting?

Perhaps not, but if they are, perhaps there is a language barrier and he is really talking about re-enactment. Either way, kudos to Wayne for a very well written email.

Kalphoenix · Post by **Kalphoenix** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:51 pm

I've actually been on the lookout for eatery-ware that is more period, but I haven't found anything that was in my price-range/looked easy to clean. I did see some more reasonable looking things at the regular stores, ala Meijers and Target, and this will probably be what I end up with. I will, however, be using normal utencils.

A possible suggestion on the pop-bottles...couldn't there be some kind of fabric wrapped around them and tied up at the neck? This would hide the actual bottle, would be cheap to make and would be reusable.

I would sure as hell hope no one gets jumped on for not being able to provide 100% authentic gear. I thought we were a more accomodating group than that. Although I did see a lot of things like phones and other electronic gadgets that could have been stored away and hidden.

And in all honesty, I have no interest in historical renactment as my LARP. I think people who do probably don't have a really great grasp on history. I know early-on, Derbyshire wanted a more realistic feel, and this always makes me giggle when faires want to go this way. People have this idealized view of history, which is still fantasy, they just want to make it "their" way. People want to believe it was all romanticiced enlightenment and chivalry. I think disease, rape, stench, crime and early death was more likely. At these "realistic" faires, I don't see manure in the streets, or someone walking around with sores, or people holding boquets of flowers to their mouths because everyone smells so bad and have their teeth rotting out of their mouths. I don't see people crouching wherever they like to go to the bathroom, or people getting drenched with dirty water thrown out a window, or bread crawling with bugs. I don't see people dying from diseases we can easily cure now or women dying in childbirth. People really don't want realism, like they think they do, they want a romantic ideal.

I come for the fantasy aspect. I love the things we have to face at every event. If Final Haven was a historical renactment, or if the fantasy aspect was cut back, I would not find it worth spending my time or energy on. I have more than enough reality around me as it is, thank you very much.

Post by **WayneO42** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:59 pm

Its not about recreating history, its about maintaining the illusion of the game. The more we strive to make ourselves and our surroundings part of Phanterra, the better the immersion will be. I am not saying that everyone needs to spend money on period eating gear just that if you dont have it, eat your food, drink your drink, then put it away in a non visable area. In fact, if people just cleaned up after themselves, it would go along way in heightening the immersion.

Donovan Thynedar · Post by **Donovan Thynedar** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:18 pm

First off, let me say thank you to everyone who has commented here thus far. Your interest and attention is appreciated.

Second, I believe that the key to maintaining the atmosphere I spoke of eariler is our attitude towards anachronisms. Not everyone will have period props, and not everyone can afford or wants to use period flatware, but we can make the effort to conceal our more modern items.

Lambic and Faerykin have the right idea with a community approach. We help each other, work with each other, and keep the game environment where it needs to be. Again, the key is in attitude. We don't need Solo cups and 2-liters, but we don't need impolite whip-crack enforcement either.

I don't think anyone expects Sen to use burlap trash bags or goat's bladder leftover containers. There will be times when for sanitary reasons modern impements are inevitable, and that's fine. Norms will drive by from time to time, and I'm sure at least one World of Warcraft conversation will be had, but so long as the general trend is towards maintaining our collective illusion that stuff is OK. The last thing that needs to happen as a result of this is for someone to feel like less of a player because they can't afford the frills. Money and props are nice, but awareness, attitude, personal commitiment, and community are what we need.

So in short, no plastic heaps and no "It must be period!" nazis. No Metallica t-shirts and no elitist snubbery. Somewhere in between we'll find our way.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:09 pm

Awsome post!

I will say we do have the smell part down by Sunday

Kalphoenix · Post by **Kalphoenix** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:35 pm

Yuck, Chris.

Doctor Erasmus · Post by **Doctor Erasmus** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:28 pm

Ok, after looking at some more pics from our Swedish friends webpage... those guys are on a totally different page than us.

http://www.larp.com/galadrim/foto/lykts ... foton.html

In particular, they are carrying steel. Blunted, but still. They have children and babies crawling about on dirty hay covered floors. This is closer to the realism of the age that was mentioned earlier as opposed to our fantasy realm. Fantasy is fun, but still pretty tiring... these fellas can keep their "Larping", I'm just not that interested.

Shea Stonebrook · Post by **Shea Stonebrook** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:36 pm

I too agree with the Lord Preceptor of the Order of the Phoenix, and I will gladly remain true to "The Ways of Old"

*reaches for her pewter goblet and raises it for a toast*

To the Ways of Old!