An Apology and a little rumor control

[Ark]

as for survival try rogue gavin with utilize resource. . .will that work out? (not looking at rule books)

Possibly, but then you have to play a Rogue Gavin...again....no choice but ... X! Besides, rogues are like gingers...no soul!

I was ninja posted but this is awesome and so true. and when a rogue takes your soul, its gone forever.


EDIT: I was talking with my brother matt about this, as he was around when carps first started and he liked the guilds and what not, and we got to brainstorming.

you take the system I made for survival. keep the support points as they are now, then create trees for the guilds (groups of people) 1 general tree, and a few special trees (mage, warrior, thieves, etc.) and have trees of little benefits and buffs that can be purchased with support points. the amount of support points you have are equal to the total number the group has. you could then actually have a mages guild, warriors guild, etc. with small benefits on the size of +2 channel damage in the mage tree, +1 crit strike damage in the thieves tree, +1 CR in the warrior tree. that kind of thing.

that kind of thing could all be combined into 1 large tree and groups could pick as a whole what they want, or multiple little trees. the benefits would be small and effect EVERYONE in the group.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

thats the old FH system....just sayin.

[GM-Phil]

Crap, I had a nice big reply all typed out and then it went away -- still getting used to this new forum format.

I have several character builds that would allow you to survive and leave points over for what you would want to buy. If I get the ambition I will post them again later.

As for the Guild system.. if you want a system that forces you to cooperate, then go ahead. The old Guild system required you to have a group people to bring in resources at all.. 1 person had no chance to survive by themselves or especially get ahead economically.

There has been discussion of Group bonuses - but I believe the mere fact of having a group is the benefit - especially if you have a balanced group - a good balanced group can buff themselves with all kinds of things, can pool resources to get ahead and even try to invest in the Economic system if desired - groups are doing this at both Games WH and FH with varying results.

[Ark]

thats the old FH system....just sayin.

pretty much, it was before my time though . I actually have a bunch of the pre FH paperwork on the system, the original write ups for the rules with pencil corrections by the original creators. . .it has come a long way to be sure


as a core concept, I think the system needs to:
-not all funnel to one person.
-benefit but not require teamwork.
-make everyone involved feel useful.
-require as little paperwork and OOG work as possible.
-easy to use and get involved in.
-benefit all those involved.
-support a wide range of group compositions.

etc.

EDIT:

There has been discussion of Group bonuses - but I believe the mere fact of having a group is the benefit - especially if you have a balanced group - a good balanced group can buff themselves with all kinds of things, can pool resources to get ahead and even try to invest in the Economic system if desired - groups are doing this at both Games WH and FH with varying results.

my idea differs slightly. however the second type of group you talk about, the in game splinters, are their already, they just don't exist in a political aspect. and have no influence on the politics or spending of haven. for example: Matt, Adam, and I consider ourselves a group, when Christen and Chelle PC they are usually with our group. we consider ourselves our own group. however we get all of our upkeep from town, the one. if we don't agree with something the majority does we cannot do anything about it. chances are we will be starving. If we spend the time gathering enough territories and dealing with an eco system we don't like to finally be able to argue against town and the one, they have MUCH larger forces and (curses) military (curses) to simply bully us and our territories into submission.

We the PC's, the heroes, are not our economic power, the territories are, the NPC's are. town does not need our help, support, or cooperation to survive. in fact without us the would have less mouths to feed and could upkeep more magic items

[GM-Phil]

as a core concept, I think the system needs to:
-not all funnel to one person. - The current system does not require this - condition met

-benefit but not require teamwork. - The current system can be utilized by as little as one person or as many as you like - condition met

-make everyone involved feel useful. - Each manager in this system is extremly important - condition met

-require as little paperwork and OOG work as possible. - Very little paperwork on the player side required, and the amount of work required by each player is up to them. - Condition met

-easy to use and get involved in. - Once involved the system is not overly complicated and there are resources to get answers, as for involvment it is easy to get involved but difficult to make ground depending on your desires you would have to define involvement better. - Condition not fully met

-benefit all those involved. - Those involved in the system gain as much benefit as they want - this is all based on in-game politics and not mechanics - Condition met

-support a wide range of group compositions. - Any number of people or compositions can gain benefit from this system - Condition met

With personal income and resources from Disciplines each character in the game is involved in a small way in the economics of the game.

So aside from wanting mechanical benefits for getting a group of friends together, and wanting money and resources without having to do a lot of work, is there anything else you would like.

If that sounded rude I am sorry but that is all I have been reading from your last few posts?=.

[Kaylan Chargeender]

-benefit but not require teamwork. - The current system can be utilized by as little as one person or as many as you like - condition met

Not accurate. The areas controlled by either the kingdom or Korrigan, let alone both, cannot be run by one person.

-make everyone involved feel useful. - Each manager in this system is extremly important - condition met

No they arent, in fact If i hired homeless people and paid for thier event I could use them if I had Korrigans holdings. even if each of thier PCs had not a single economic system skill and never turned in anything in between events to state they were doing a damn thing with the holdings. The holdings would still funnel rescources, and to one person if I had set it up like Taki did. So your not even close on this one. Hell Taki could get NPCs to runn em if he tried and wanted to.

require as little paperwork and OOG work as possible. - Very little paperwork on the player side required, and the amount of work required by each player is up to them. - Condition met

cant agree here either. close, no one HAS do do extra work, and they do suffer the consequences of doing nothing. And to say it requires little paperwork is just a wordsmithing distortion of the truth.

[Ark]

-_-

I don't use the political system to upkeep myself, nor do I go to the funnel and get my upkeep. it has required me to play one character for a long time to simply not deal with any of the clutter so I can simply enjoy the game. any comment I make about the system is simply how I feel, I could care less how convoluted, difficult to use, complex, and horrid the system becomes, it really does not effect me at all, nor any of my group. ^_^

I talk a lot with Matt, Christen, and Jared. all of whom have much more experience then me, but also have different views on things. Matt just asks if something is fun, he has no tolerance for something that's just not fun. Christen loves Roleplaying and Lore and is just fun to talk about races and the world. Jared deals with all mechanics and political aspects of FH, so we really get to arguing over the mechanics behind things.

getting to sit between these three very different people and listen and talk with them has given me great insight into FH and Larps in general.

Jared and others that know and deal with the political system do think its awesome and easy to use, and if you complain about something will answer like above and say your complaint is unfounded at the system does do what you want.

Matt will listen to you rabble about numbers and percent's and territories and managers and will get bored and go play something else.

Christen as a player will do her best to understand how it works in game and will try to work and bend it as best as she can. . .only to find out later she was wrong. . .again

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whatever you all designed the political system to do and claim its capable of doing is obviously not what's going on. here is what the political system is in FH/WH, plain and simple.

the jumble of territories that requires so much back work by the GM's produces a massive amount of resources / money / commodities

all of that gets funneled to the managers who have been picked because they will either hand over or sign over everything to the one in charge

the one in charge then upkeeps everyone in town and allocates where the extra gets spent / put / etc.

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do you know what is required of the standard PC to acquire / work for / fight to survive?

they walk up to the one in charge, and ask for their upkeep <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<THIS is Final Havens epic economic system, the fight for survival.

[GM-Phil]

And I am speaking mechanics - Everything you both have described is how horrible the economics is run and how hard is to get involved by the players. Which I am afraid to tell you is all about the players.. it has littel to nothing to do with the mechanics

To Brian - when I say 1 person can run the system and not need teamwork I am not talking the entiretly of the Territories - I am speaking to the fact that it was stated that you have to be in a group or subjugate yourself to someone to be involved in the economic sysytem, and that is false. 1 person can control without any skills a small Territory of 1 Holding and even make a tidy profit from it, if they can find one (and they are out there).

As for usefullness, what I mean is that each manager has a role to play and is useful. it depends on the player to determine how useful they are.. if they just want to go with the flow, then they can.. if they want to do more they can.. but there are always RP consequences as with any action. I figured this would be the highlight for you Brian, this part is a majority of role playing in the system.

Paperwork - I stick with, on the player side there is little they HAVE to do, at WH there is one sheet they fill out for their Holdings, and that is all they HAVE to do. If a manager wants to improve those Holdings, then it will require more work, but that may not lead to paperwork depending on skills.

I think the biggest problem I see here is you both compare the economic mechanics to the position that FH is currently in. Whereas I am coming from a WH perspective where the economics in-game are quite different. People seem to think that nothing can change, so they either do not try or try for an event or two, make little process and think.."I can't change anything" because the guy who I am competing against has been putting this into place for years.

Now hypothesis - What if Korrigan died? what would happen to the Territories - would one person step up to take it all over.. would several step up to fight for them.. I think what would happen would be very interesting.

As for Ark's post - What I really got out of your post in regards to what Matt likes, Christen likes and what Jared likes is that we have one hell of a good game because it causes late night debates about multiple aspects of the game, and that regardless of what you like we have it. Thanks Ark

I know I would be bored silly if this was just a game where people showed up and beat each other with sticks - heck just join the SCA

or where people sit around and talk up their character and discuss character histories - Go to a Minds Eye Theatre game

Or just an economic mechanical sysytem - heck just play any of several MMO's

What we have here is a game that brings all that to life.. is everything super awesome and perfect -- no .. combat can always be made better, same for RP, and same for economy..

[GM_Chris]

So Ark let's say we implement a system that is everything you ever wanted. You wander into game as a lone wolf or maybe with just a couple friends. You do not have to worry about survival and you with your two friends might even get a couple cool perks. Then "the one" decides to start railroading you and is able to use all their super awesome perks (they have way more people) to lure 1 of your two friends away. This causes you to lose the little you were able to do. The good news is maybe you are not starving but you till got hurt and hey if "the one" wanted to hurt you further for non compliance then perhaps he/she outlaws anyone helping you on plots so you are reduced to paying for an event where you essentially do nothing.

[Ark]

i came in from being outside to hear matt finish a sentence "people trying to screw me!" when i asked what he was talking about, he said FH. he said why would i play a game were everything is trying to screw me. he then commented "its not like back in the day were someone was playing an assassin and was just out to kill someone and one of you would be dead and could just laugh about it."

@Aiden: usually we are complaining about how something works

@Chris: first 1) they would not be able to convince Matt, Adam, Christy, Chelle, Christen, or I, to betray the others, this is one of the reasons people are afraid of us, we are never alone. but for the sake of argument. If Christen was lured away with shiny things (of the group she would be most likely to flip on us ) and we were left alone but still able to survive. . .we would be fine. the one or that larger group does not control us, our upkeep, or our economic support (we the players, the heroes, are our own economic support, not a farm or territory that can bought, bullied, or burnt.)

second 2) I would not care if they banned town from helping us, once again we control our own upkeep. if there going to say you cannot play with us that's fine. the group of players i play with is competent enough to roll with just each other (and mechanically built that way) we would then wander and quest to our hearts content, checking on locals and helping were we could out of the goodness of our heart, the joy of playing the game, and for fun. not for fear of starving or economic back lash.

third 3) If town hated us enough they would have to confront us in game and physically drive us out of town, kill us, or what have you. not spend events trying to screw over our territories and trade routes pretending like everything's cool between us -_-

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the main difference between my thoughts and others?

i think we the players, the heroes, should be our own economic power, not the farms and territories behind us.

[GM_Chris]

I guarantee that if you had that many people all working together you would have no issue at all finding territory to upkeep yourselves

[cole45]

Also it is possible to use Troops to raid other territories besides haven and use those materials to upkeep yourself. Troops are great because you an buy them piece meal a little at a time and you upkeep them with coin but can get plenty of resources out. You do NOT have to turn those troops against Territories in haven.

[Ark]

@Chris: the system does provide, im not saying it doesn't, im saying I don't like it, and don't find it fun, therefore I choose to ignore it. as does a large portion of the PC base it seems.

@Cole: not only do I bet that you would suffer repercussions for doing that (we always seem to) once again we, the heroes, are not the main focus of any of it. if lord of the rings used the FH system they would have just sent an army in their place and chilled in Rivendell. . .im sure it would have been easy on them but its not a very epic story.

[GM_Chris]

I think I need to help so I will give an example from last event.

Sooo I had a person come up to my bar tender and role play with me. They asked me if there was anything I needed. I told them I am always looking for exotic food. The player asked me quietly what that would mean. I said 2 food would equal 1 food. The player said they had exotic food available and asked what I could provide and I told him/her I could offer special training (ie some sort of skill boon)

To help me understand could you explain to me how this interaction is NOT fun. How it is not easy. How it does NOT include RP. How is was only accessible to only a few people.

[Ark]

. . .was that supposed to have something to do with the FH eco system?

not being snarky just trying to understand here ^_^