FH Combat

[celegar]

i made my point about not liking power gamers because every chance that i see them actually power game they put everyone in the dust in terms of power, by hoarding magic items or money and using those things to kill everything that comes their way without leaving anything for other people to do, which makes the game not fun for anyone else but them. having an ego rush is different from dominating a game due to powergaming, which is based on constant effects. things like whats his name using the magebody crystal thing isnt powergaming because it was only for a limited time. one example that i can think of was the three fighters my first fh event(at brighton) that went off with those magic items and did a whole bunch of stuff on their own, leaving the whole town back and taking quite a bit of plot all for themselves. that kind of powergaming i have a problem with, because it unbalences the game. searching for ways to become more powerfull, i have no problem with.

its true cj, when i first came into game i ran screaming into camp running with my hammer at the ready, who is gonna accept and orc with open arms that goes running at you screaming. it occurs to me, perhaps it was because i had a real costume on, full chainmaile and everything. maybe it would help the pc's empathise with npc's if they did a little more costuming instead of just wearing street clothes, even a tabard can go a long way.

[General Maximus]

I can understand the not likeing the people who hoard plots. But has anyone confronted them in game about hoarding the magic item's, money etc...?
When I played, you had to have the support of a group people to bring in the resources to upkeep and create the items of power. You piss off the people, they stop supporting you, you loose your income, and you can not upkeep your items, and you loose them. The only way to gain the powerful items is to have people supporting you. Is that still the case or is there a work around now, or people not paying for the upkeep for said items? (aka cheating)

[celegar]

i believe those items were upkeep free, since they were "striders" items. and the items themselves were UBER powerfull. like making you immune to certain calls and the like. the only downside was that they couldnt be taken from that site, so they were only usable for that event, which made only that event have that problem, which is why im only using it as an example of powergaming.

[General Maximus]

Ahh, I see.

But are there current stituations where items people have make them way to ppwerful and unblance the game?
Right now, the more powerful the item, the higher the negative and upkeep. That is the same for casting spells and making potions and items.

But the flaw in this system is if people are not paying the upkeep or the crafting costs. It is an honor system and is very hard to figure who is exactly not following the rules and paying for stuff. For the most part, the PC's do it correctly, but I would lay money down that there are some people who don't pay the proper upkeep for stuff whcih breaks the system. And I personaly take great offense who do this type of stuff to gain some power over their fellow players. It destroys the entire game for everyone. And this is one of the reason I quit FH. The people who followed the rules got screwed. No fault from the GM's. They have enough to do with runnning the game with out baby sitting the players.

[Ark]

i get what celegar is saying, you put alot of time and effort into your character to make them really good at something, and then someone comes along that can do it better with magic items and potions, things that new players dont have nearly enough access to as vets

[Kalphoenix]

While it seems odd for random monsters to attack the "town", remember what the world is like. The world is quite a bit wilder than during the CARPs timeline. We know how hard it is for people who know how to take care of themselves to deal with the new flora and fauna and enviroment changing catastrophies (like the giant crevasse opening during the Nov event).

You give great examples. However none of the examples are random, they all have motives.

i made my point about not liking power gamers because every chance that i see them actually power game they put everyone in the dust in terms of power, by hoarding magic items or money and using those things to kill everything that comes their way without leaving anything for other people to do, which makes the game not fun for anyone else but them.

The Brighton event was a major exeption to the usual. Things like that DO NOT happen normally, as Nelkie says, everything has a cost and that is the balance. But hopefully without starting an argument or debate on them, it was a good example of how the theorized "advanced" progression combat rules at the time could be OP and make the game less fun for those who are just starting. Your perspective was the cleanest, because I BELIEVE that was your first event?

But the flaw in this system is if people are not paying the upkeep or the crafting costs. It is an honor system and is very hard to figure who is exactly not following the rules and paying for stuff. For the most part, the PC's do it correctly, but I would lay money down that there are some people who don't pay the proper upkeep for stuff whcih breaks the system. And I personaly take great offense who do this type of stuff to gain some power over their fellow players. It destroys the entire game for everyone. And this is one of the reason I quit FH. The people who followed the rules got screwed. No fault from the GM's. They have enough to do with runnning the game with out baby sitting the players.

Unless you want to name names so they can defend/incriminate themselves, lets just assume that NO ONE IS CHEATING. When you say you would "lay money down" that people are cheating, it creates that "us vs them" mentality that I REALLY hate. It's says "It's ok for me to try to screw certain players over, or cheat to compensate, because even though I can't PROOVE they are cheating, I feel that they must be."

I'm sure this isn't the case, I'm sure that isn't what it means, but it REALLY, REALLY sounds like it and it HURTS THE PLAYERBASE.

Cheaters are going to cheat. Nothing is going to change that except confronting them with the proof and/or kicking them out of the game, which only GMs have the authority to do. I hate to sound defensive about it, but I'm really tired of hearing the shady attacks and hearing people say that it isn't the GM's job to mediate problems like this. You think someone is cheating, you aren't willing to throw out names and examples in public, keep it off the public forums and leave it in private messages to the staff.

Contacting a GM about issues is not called babysitting, it's called "I've tried to educate this person, but they still aren't following the rules. It's time for me to call in the people who have the authority to actually DO something about it instead of starting an inflammatory situation. Also, I may not be privy to all the relevant information, which is probably not my business anyway."

I occasionally disagree, or feel situations weren't resolved to my satisfaction, but I accept that what the the people GMing a game decide is up to them.

This is the kind of talk/attitude that kept ME out of FH most of last year. My absolute #1 issue. I can't think of anything else that even comes in at a close second.

The problem I have with the "Powergaming" argument making things not fun for other people is this: They earned everything they had, as far as the GMs were concerned. People are expressing the things they did and did not like and I think taking people's achievements away would be not fun for them, either.

Let's look at the Corbyn thing:

Do I think it was a great story? You bet. Epic. If I were reading or watching it, I would have been enthralled (As it is, I was amused, but then again, I'm something of a masochist ).

Do I think it was still powergaming? Hell yes. No one one can reasonably argue against that.

Should the GMs have let it happen? I definitely can't make that call from a GM standpoint, but if it IS a player-driven game, then yes. Artificially taking things away from people because you don't like what it does to the game takes away choices and believability. It also takes away player trust.

"Character actions = Character consequences." People decided that because someone was their friend, they wouldn't get lied to, manipulated or otherwise. People made those decisions for themselves.

Is it fair and was their ever any cheating or fudging, no matter how minor? Were some things done cheesy, even though they weren't technically against the rules? Can't answer that one. It's all an issue of perspective.

Do I think it was good for the playerbase as a whole? Probably not from an OOC perspective. I seriously don't know if the game will ever "come back" from it. But where do you draw the line?

In the end, was it fun for anyone except Vince? Somehow, I think very few people would say yes. I think there are still a lot of bad feelings both between players and characters. But that's part of what you have to accept when you make decisions and when you roleplay.

I DO sympathize. Cheating sucks. And guess how I do my part? Instead of just saying I'm sure people are cheating, and instead of accepting that my friends won't "cheat" or that they know all the rules, I ask them lots of questions and if I still don't feel something is right, I tell a GM and let them decide if something is fishy, because hopefully they have the missing pieces, or can decide what to do from there. I don't let the people I play with do whatever they want on general principle, no matter HOW long I've known them. I call them on things they are doing or discussing ALL THE TIME. Ask how much of a pest I am, although I think you already know. I think people LIKE being able to prove that everything is legit. But if the answer you get from a GM is "Yeah, it's legal," accept that answer. I know some people thrive on details and it KILLS them not to have them all, but some things are not other player's business, no matter HOW impartial they say they are.

[Kalphoenix]

i get what celegar is saying, you put alot of time and effort into your character to make them really good at something, and then someone comes along that can do it better with magic items and potions, things that new players dont have nearly enough access to as vets

Actually, I feel the game is very new-character friendly. These "other" people ALSO put a lot of time and effort into their characters. Nothing was just "given" to them. There is no "instant gratification," but...

--> At this point, pretty much anyone could have what anyone does now, given thought, work and patience. <--

Maybe I'll even get a FH GM backing me up on that statement. It has less to do with "being a vet" than it does with thinking outside of the box and spending your time wisely. It's an illusion if you feel otherwise.

Even before, with magic items and whatnot, I was told that the REASON why the people on top had all the magic items is because other players kept GIVING them to them.

I'll state what I said before, if the people with goodies help, it's not fun for people OOC, if they stay out of it, people dog them IC and say they aren't helping the town. What are your suggestions to solve this without providing "instant gratification" based solutions?

To go back to the solo thing...if you don't have people supporting you (I think even Nelkie mentioned this already), you ARE going to be weaker and you aren't going to have access to everything you want. It SHOULD be this way. The rules don't need to be altered so that you can do just fine without cooperating (Or at least the illusion of cooperating) with the other players.

[celegar]

not gonna lie, i love the fact that i have slept through 2 town wipes. one with the magebody, and one with the zombies(which eventually somone woke me up and i got to mashin).

[Rhul]

I guess I exist outside of the magic item and quality armor debate, lol.

In a year and a half and over a span of three characters (the late Durgan, Garritt@ WH and Rhul @FH) I have never owned or used anything that was magic, quality, or indeed anything craftable (aside from basic armor/weapons), regardless of playing all three like warriors, even though one was a Rogue, and one is an Empath.

The closest I've come was Rhul carrying two of the "poisoned steel" rods from the caves back into town at WH last year.


"Lone Wolves"

Until someone designs some rules for economical resource gathering as a lone entity (lumberjacking, farming, hunting) at FH/WH, it'll be tough. It should be. In an agrarian, resource/scavenged goods-based society (such as post-apocolypse Phanterra) it should be nearly impossible to live alone at a technology level above the most extreme basic (Think Native American). It's suppose dto be that was to foster teamwork/socialization, and to strengthen the feel of the game setting.

But it's still possible, with a character built for it. Use your wilderness survival and/or barter skills to gain resources and trade them with a combination of the PC base/Caldonain traders to gain higher resources, such as the resources you need for crafting/ item upkeep. Theoretically, it seems like with enough work you could get high enough to become a resource providing entity fully independant of the town, such as a carpenter or weaponsmith, building items and at the same time upkeeping themselves.

But it'll take a big investment of time, just like in the real world.

[Ark]

it WAS done, through path and discipline choices you could get 6 resources and have basic sages upkeep skill, the downside being you were going to be rather weak, wich i would be fine with having the peace of mind to just not have to care about that, for note, forcing me to go collect resources dosnt make me social, it makes me cranky.

EDIT just for note i do have a fix for that, at character creation everyone has 20 points to spend right, make a 20 point skill that is wilderness survival, or something like that, you get i primary and one secondary resource at the begining of the event, its offset by the fact that if you do buy this skill you wont have weapons or armor ar any other resources.

[cole45]

you can not use the 20 points of starting gear to by skills except for read write(and then it's 10.) these are NOT skill points and should not be counted as such.

[Aurora]

you can not use the 20 points of starting gear to by skills except for read write(and then it's 10.) these are NOT skill points and should not be counted as such.

What he said for I was just about to point that out. That starting 20 points is to get things like armor, weapons, and supplies for first event survival.

[Ark]

wow that was totally misunderstood, no problem let me explain, you use the 20 points to buy stuff for your character, and stuff they can do like read and write, well make a skill thats LIKE wilderness survival, if you need an example i belive phills perk system has a skill called scavenger, wich lets the player have 1 primary and 1 secondary resource, making a starting skill like that, it make sence that a savage beastman might not be skilled enough to have weapons or armor, but he might be good at collecting food in the woods (this is not directed at you rhul, we all no your smart and can read) does that explain?

[Kalphoenix]

That would be really unbalancing. Things you buy with starting points are largely consumables, and read/write languages is a fairly limited skill, use wise. If you tried to add that ability, I guarantee you that NO ONE would take anything else ever again. It will never happen. Again, starting points are NOT skill points.

There IS a skill like that. It's called Wilderness Survival. Take the skill if you are able to. It exists.

The savage beastman is a good idea...again, use those starting resources to buy resources you have "hoarded" before you came to more civilized lands to represent what you have left. If you are savage, you can also buy Wilderness Survival.

But a neverending resource source essentially for "free?" Not gonna happen.

forcing me to go collect resources dosnt make me social, it makes me cranky.

Again, it IS a social game. As a question, why would you play at LARP if you don't want the 'bother' of having to interact with anyone?

Otherwise, you still have lots of options:

1.) You can make friends.
2.) You can steal what you need.
3.) You can attempt to hire yourself out, ala mercenary style.
4.) You can try to provide a service or trade-skill to the other characters.
5.) You can starve and accept the penalties therein.

I'm sure there are more ideas, these are just the first ones that come to mind.

I'm personally of the mindset that if you can't get SOMEONE to help support you, you probably deserve to starve. Sometimes, that's just nature's way.

I'm not sure what happened with all the political rules since the last overhaul, but technically, I THINK if you want to play a privileged character Bureaucrat/Diplomat to get the skills where you count as enough people to maintain an org all by yourself and were a basic sage with utilize resources, once you were high enough level with enough support points, you could make a bid on a trade-route and support yourself that way. You wouldn't have many, if ANY combat skills other than being able to wear heavy armor and swing for one, but you could do it. But again, it still requires a time/work investment, and you wouldn't be able to do it from the get-go.

[GM-Mike]

Yeah, what Heidi said. It'll never happen.