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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:41 am

Taki, didn't we (err..you?) already establish faith and morals without religion in a 7,000,000 page thread?
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:42 am

General Maximus wrote:On a side not, could not some morality, good and evil be written via king Galens laws? It not relgion, just basic laws everyone must live by or leave. I see it as a descent solution FH is facing with PC lack of morlity and conscinuos. If the only way to be considered evil and have people act against you is to kill the entire town, than there is something wrong :D


WTF!! I'm going to poke your eyes out with a dull spoon!! Lack of morality and conscious my flatulent fiery ass!! :lol: Just because there are few people in the town that would be considered completely good doesn't mean that there aren't ALOT of people that actually have morals and honor. Personally I think FH reflects society much more closely than most people would like to admit.

*Stoms off grumbling about being the one accused of NOT wanting laws over and over only to be the ONLY one from that time that tried to institute any laws*
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:45 am

Well, we sort of already have gods in FH. In fact we've killed one. We broke another's soul into pieces, and the final one wants nothing to do with us. They are called dragons. They are immensely more powerful than us, can choose to help or hinder us, but mostly sit on the sidelines and watch. The dwarves pray to them already (they sing songs about them which is identical to a hymn). The rest of us just need to come around. :)

Granted, they aren't any more of a god than a Goa'uld, seeing as they are just another race of beings. Of course, who's to say the gods we pray to in real life aren't also? It would beyond the scope of our understanding or his/her need to ever explain to us. Granted, that's all based in your beliefs which is different for every individual on the planet.
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:06 pm

I have a lot to say on this issue (Some of which Erik beat me to). I am working on a post now, but first, I would invite everyone to read an article that is not only in the Lore archive on the site but was written in 1998...a decade ago...wow, I'm old. http://www.finalhavenlarp.com/lore/misc/death.html
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 pm

I think I vaguely remember that....


Works for me. :)
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:31 pm

Peace420 wrote:Contrary to what some people may believe it is indeed very possible to have both faith in something greater than yourself and morality without having religion. You don't need geebus or the dehbul or hecate or gaia to tell you that some things are not conducive to a well run, organized and fair society.


I agree. But for the most part, most societies believe in some sort of higher power and to eliminate any chance of that part of human culture from the game dillutes it. Yes, there are some societies that have no gods but still have some sort of faith, but they're a minority.

GM_Chris wrote:
think the majority of Players would have no problem with having dieties worshiped


It is not an issue of everyone else. It is an issue with me. I just want to make sure that is very clear. I am not againt worship in the game because I think the player base is against it. I am against it because I think it it morally wrong.


You have every right not to have to worship something as a diety in-game. Many would use "Apple" or "Orange" for such a thing (or at least should) if they don't want to act it out because of personal un-ease.

But players should be allowed to "worship" however they feel their characters would. No one would say that a character cannot murder, or steal though. So while I appreciate your own convictions, I don't think it should influence another player's right to roleplay how they wish as long as it fits into the setting.

Right now the "setting" states that there are no gods, and that there is no rules mechanic benefit to worshiping. But if a character still attempts to, or raises the status of a powerful entity to that of more power, then they may begin to worship him as a god. After all, a god is just a supernatural thing with the power to influence their lives.
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:44 pm

Watch this, witch is considered a religious slander, witch hunter is akin to lynch mob and we have that as part of the game. :twisted:
Last edited by Peace420 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:44 pm

I think I understand where Chris is coming from.

To me, just seeing someone act out a pretend ritual that they concocted as part of a fictional entertainment is not truly Worship, and therefore should have no moral slight to anyone or to anyone's God. But, then again look at what happened with Scientology... :twisted:
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:47 pm

Art you are correct if the FH universe was in someway a democracy. :)
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:28 pm

Erik,

No slam intend or meant. I just rember how long it took to come up with laws, and how difficult it was to enforce them. You did what you could with what you had at hand.

But tell me this, how many people did the town proscute for breaking said laws? How effective where the PC laws and how effective was their enforcement? I can't say becasue I really never worked with the town. I have an outsider view and have my own opinions, but they are mostly biasis based on the information I was feed by some guy called Corbyn. :D

I always felt some basic laws should be created and some what enforced by the NPC's with PC help. And if the PC's disagree with the laws, they can do something about it.

After 6 + years, I still feel we do not have enforced laws in haven and it is survial of fittests. But that is my opinion and I admitt I do not have a full persepctive of the town and how they operate
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:54 pm

So says one of the main reasons the town could never come together. I was only joking before but I will cut your heart out with a spoon man. :wink:
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:01 pm

I think we should see faith in FH as the living force like Star wars, but the two sides being Order and Chaos, as we have called it in WH. There is no good or evil; no cosmic judge. It's basically Karma by another name. It is not religion, it is merely a way to describe how others tend to respond to your actions.

If you do something selfless, you add to the Order in the world. If you do something selfish, you add to the Chaos. But both are sides to the same coin, not 'good' or 'evil', because they are described entirely by how others perceive them, not by a law laid down by a being long ago.

You most certainly don't get anything as a reward for what you do, other than what you feel by doing it. Order and Chaos are simply a giant sliding scale that describes your character's temperment towards dealing with a situation, not something greater that requires servitude in any way.

An example:

The group must get past a force that is guarding the way. A character who seemingly prefers Order would be willing to talk with them, which might take longer, but could lead to a solution bettering both sides. A more Chaotic-leaning character's opinion is to push through them, even if that means a fight and someone getting hurt, because they think (even if they're wrong) that it'll get a faster resolution so they can get on with the mission.

Both of these situations can get the group where they need to go, but in differing ways, but they don't have any cosmic significance, because depending on the situation, either can be the best method. Maybe they have the time to make deals, so Order is needed. But maybe time is of the essence, and they are being blocked from someone who is dying that they want to save, so in that way Chaos will get the best result. It all depends on the characters' in-game views, but are not in any way motivated by what they could stand to gain in some kind of afterlife.
Last edited by Durgan on Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:02 pm

no problem, but make sure it is a dull spoon :D
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:17 pm

Basically, 'Order' would embody patience, empathy, and temperence.

Chaos, on the other hand, is the essence of impatience, a bit of selfishness, and ego.

Basically, you can either make a burger from scratch, pounding the meat into a patty, then cooking it on a sunny day over a wood fire, or you can go to McDonalds and order one. In both ways, you still end up with a burger, but the quality depends entirely on who is eating it. It has nothing to do with the grand scheme of things, and no gods played a part in it- it's just a burger, and both ways got you there.

No one seemed to take offense. (if I'm mistaken, PM me) but rather seemed like they were warning me


You got off damn easy then, NG. After the Night of the Burning Skulls, I was joking about "Durgan getting to be the only Guthrie in the Hall of Heroes after the show he just put on here", describing how I fought to the death to protect the healers.

I was instantly pointed at (yes, literally- Matt saw it) and seriously told, "No!! There is no religion in Final Haven, you simply died!" Hearing that after loosing a character I cared about and simply wanting a fun end to his story, I was absolutely pissed to no end, especially with the fact that Durgan has literally been inside the Hall of Heroes, in-game, and that it exists in the World Guide.

I was also warned at the Carps back-in-time event that my new WH character couldn't be associated with a Daemon (not the Satan kind, the malign otherworldly entity kind, I made it quite clear) be someone's wife wouldn't like it, simply because of that.
Last edited by Durgan on Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:28 pm

Those are incorrect since order does not nessissarily embody any of those concepts.

For example, the Elvs were attempting to bring order.
Irobot, the evil robot was attempting to bring order.
Dictators attempt to bring order.
The mob attempts to bring order

Order can be good or evil.
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