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Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:50 pm

Now I now there is no Religion in Final Haven, but what of faith?

I bring this up because I have seen signs of an afterlife in our realm which raises a question of souls and a hereafter. There is the Hall of Heroes the Dwarves have, the fact that Dallid was almost basically ascended and then returned, and the fact that we can use the spell Reincarnation and bring an 'essence' back even after years of death hints to me of an afterlife.

Now I am in NO WAY suggesting a religion. Only a faith of an afterlife with no need for tributes or any type of sacrifices. Kind of like Deists. Higher power with no prayer/religion/written word/or any other kind of factor like that.

Is something like this possible because I already see the base elements of in in the game already, so I am wondering if there is a line of 'faith' that is not to be crossed in the game, even with the absence of religion, or is there even a supposed afterlife?

Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:10 pm

I always saw faith in FH/WH as the Force. You can have souls (I mean, essences), good and bad, all associated actions, but with no gods telling people what to do (and most importantly, not conflicting with anyone's RL religious beliefs)

I mean, cmon, how is someone's essence not the same as a force spirit?! :wink:

Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:59 am

my essence is so totally NOT midiclorian poop

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:21 am

What Durgan said

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:34 am

CARPS has the same no-religeon rules, but faith is definitely allowable. There was even a healer known as Believer Brian who dressed as a monk and performed 'Faith Healing'. You had to believe in his power to heal in order to actually be healed. :P

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:38 am


I was talking to Mike that perhaps I screwed up long long ago in the days of CARPS creation when I put my foot down and said no Gods.

Why? I did not want to see people acting out praying to make believe GOds. It would have been very offensive to me.

Why did I screw up? Well there is no higher purpose in the game except indivualism. People can talk to me about the utopia of aithism, but we have that in our FH simulation and well we have what we have and that is a bit of Apathy.

People want to feel they are part of something grander than themselves. I believe most people want to serve somehting rightous. It is the very definition of "Epic". Take LOTR they have Gods, no one prays, but they are there, and there is a sence of grandness to the world. Gandolf says " Go back to the nothingness that awaits you and your master. Then tells hobits when you die there aer green fields. It is poetic.

If I could have Gods without all the praying, religious symbols, and idols then well maybe I would be for it, but as we all know it would not happen.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:46 am

Wow, is THIS going to open a can of worms...

All of this is from my own perspective and what I've gathered over the time at the LARP. Even though I may state this as if it were all fact, there may actually be incorrect assumptions here.

Some players have (on their own mostly) done some scenes from "beyond the grave" or have come back to express that they were sentient beyond death. However, I don't think any of that has been sanctioned by the GMs (or if it has, may not have been a group concensus.)

Upon "death" the essence of someone is released and returned back to the primordial ether that is the force that makes up the world. Some means are often used to reconstitute that essence into its prior form and bring that person back.
The frail mortal mind often cannot process this information and re-interprets the "experience" in strange ways and so the idea of Halls of Heroes, or an "afterlife" are created.

Other times that essence may have the had an unusual connection and may allow a "soul" to give one last bit of contact with the mortal (or connect with the essence of another through dreams)... again, not officially by mechanics but by a need for a last roleplaying scene.

Now, some players have played up the idea of following the path of "Light" and whatnot. They may roleplay that certain things affect them in certian ways, but there's no mechanics to it... it's just roleplaying.
Yes, it does seem odd that we have Druids and Paladins, and yet can't have religion and barely "faith".
(Faith, by the way, could be as simply believing in Karma, or that hard work will reward you in return, or even that there is no sort of balance between this concept of "good" and "evil"...)

So while there are no gods or superior powers officially in the LARP, it's up to the players to decide if their characters want a theology or faith. I think that fact that so many players have pushed to creaet some sort of faith in character shows that there is a will and ways to do it. It just probably will never be officially recognized in the rules.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:56 am

We can't have relgion, but can't we create some causes or stituation where we are doing more than just suriving? In carps, there where each races perspective, thoughts, and views of te world and than there where the dynamics of silverthorn, the human laws. this created a grand back drop for politic's, disagreements, causes to follow, etc... ideas like: I want to help the dwarves take silverthorn down ( I never knew anyone who was trying to do that :wink: ), or getting involved in Silverthorn politics, etc...

FH is missing that becasue we all are in survial mode and doing what is best for ourselves. There is no distinct race's cultures, or limited outside govermental forces. We are just a group of being that are working together with no racial idivualism or politcal ties to an outside force or group.

I agree, I like the epic strugle to accomplish something. Some people have been able to achieve this in FH, but not many. I'm wondering now, that we are moving locations, maybe more of this could be opened up. It also could be PC's are jsut being lazy and not wanting to go for that epic strugle and impossible goal. I'm thinking of more than, we must stop said bad guy, but something like, if I accomplish this, I can create paridise out of this chaos for me and my people. Or if I accomplish said goal, I become a ruler of said land (of course, said player would be retired than).

I personaly like to play for these high goals and find enjoyment plotting and planning how to achieve said goal. That is why I find a cause to join, or create on myself. And survial is just so boaring for me.

Just my wandering thoughts and ideas's

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:06 am

according to George Michael [Wham!] you GOTTA have faith

(I think it would be nice, if I could touch your body, I know not everybody, has a body like yours)

Gods and Generality...

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:13 am

GM_Chris wrote:If I could have Gods without all the praying, religious symbols, and idols then well maybe I would be for it, but as we all know it would not happen.

I think that there are many players who would love to add more theology and morality to the game, but some more than others have crushed most of that by saying "There is no religion in Final Haven." Without any external sources saying what is good or bad (whether from actual or made-up religions in-game), it's just people being animals with no real way to control it. Anything that would try to make them seem like they are mroe is either useless or artificially tossed in. Players though have actually begun pushing for more and I've heard from several that they're only going as far as they can because they don't want the Final Haven GMs to kill their exploration and fun. I think the majority of Players would have no problem with having dieties worshiped if there was no game advantage, or having dieties in the past that offer no mechanical advantage either.

I think it would be interesting to say that there were Gods, but that they are kind of like absentee landlords. They created the world in whatever fashion and just were never heard from again (or left after some time...)

I wouldn't mind worship in the game, as long as there were no game mechanic rules for praying to them. You can pray to the Lord of Sky all you want, but he will never mechanically answer you. On the other hand, who says that a player can't make pacts and worship the Fire King as a diety? He's very powerful and from another plane of existance... Sure, he's not a real diety, but could he still be worshiped as one?

But I would not like to see a "one powerful god who decides Good and Evil" changing the morals of the game, where players worship and have a divine right over what happens. To have both game-mechanical and RP worship and reward.

(I think I've repeated myself too many times here... sorry about that.)

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:23 am

I mentioned a pre-cataclysm 'church of the one magic' in Ehn J'hii's history, (no mention of worship, dietification, relgion at all) and everyone who read it said "there are no churches". No one seemed to take offense. (if I'm mistaken, PM me) but rather seemed like they were warning me. Maybe I was just using 'church' to conjure up imagery similar to the WH cathedral not being religious.

I don't know how I was going to make this relevent so...potato or potatoe?...there, that makes everything relevent

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:23 am

::Looks up at what Chris wrote...:: Do I hear Ode to Joy playing?? Hath Hell frozen over? Wow, awesome.

My take as Head WH Gm is this:

I know how the universe works. I know the science of how the metaphysics functions, and such. All that is just out there, it's enigmatic and mysterious, and is what it is.

There are no 'Gods,' 'Angels/Demons,' 'Heaven/Hell'...

However, characters can beleive whatever they like.

They can think that their inner strength comes from a woman that lives in a tree, or in the sky... dragons... whatever. It's all part of an pretend fiction. No one is really praying to anything, because in order for that to be blashemous they would have to actually have faith in it, and beleive it's real.

Which it's not, and should be divorced from real world religions. Maybe inspired by them thematicaly, but no one should be Christian/Muslum/Buddist/Etc. And, the GMs and safe words to make sure it never goes too far, and that players are comfortable.

There may be beings that may call themselves one thing or another... Claim to be the light/power/whatever, and maybe they actually beleive it, or are just messing with people... Like the Goa'uld in Stargate SG-1.

Can essences go to other realms after leaving their bodies? Sure... why not? The Valken'vi came from somewhere didn't they. Other realms exist...

Can characters ask for guidance from higher beings... sure. More powerful/insightful creatures exist that could help or reward devotion... doesn't make them inherantly holy.

It all lies in character perception, personal beleif, context, and keeping in-game and out seperate.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:26 am

think the majority of Players would have no problem with having dieties worshiped

It is not an issue of everyone else. It is an issue with me. I just want to make sure that is very clear. I am not againt worship in the game because I think the player base is against it. I am against it because I think it it morally wrong.

This is not something to argue about because you will not change my mind on this issue.

To get an idea of how strongly I feel. If someone told me they would shoot themselves in the head if I did not allow worship, and there was no other options either that person's death or worship. I would hand the person the gun.

Now that said, I am starting to wonder if no God's is not just as bad. Which then brings me to the moral question of LARP'ing in general.

Definitly stuff to think on.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:32 am

On a side not, could not some morality, good and evil be written via king Galens laws? It not relgion, just basic laws everyone must live by or leave. I see it as a descent solution FH is facing with PC lack of morlity and conscinuos. If the only way to be considered evil and have people act against you is to kill the entire town, than there is something wrong :D

Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:37 am

Contrary to what some people may believe it is indeed very possible to have both faith in something greater than yourself and morality without having religion. You don't need geebus or the dehbul or hecate or gaia to tell you that some things are not conducive to a well run, organized and fair society.

Faith in something greater than yourself, well the phoenix gaurd is founded on that notion. Loyalty is a form of faith.

Just because most people tie "afterlife" to religion doesn't mean it has to be. Yeah magic is "the force" or a real life example part of the source.

And there was a plot at the first game the WH GM's ran that brought a bunch of people back in the form of "ghosts" the first event at that site there were "ghosts" so yes the GM's have set the precedent and in fact asked some people to play a beyond the grave interaction.
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