Change in Charge Skill Disruption

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dier_cire
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Post by dier_cire »

Ok, I'm not bothering to read any of the second page just yet. However, as for the stupidity of the 1000000 warriors and rogues versus the single defensive matrix guy, I call total bs that he is invunerable. Why? Cuase we had that scenario last event! I died. It took awhile for Kahl and Atreus to get their strategy down, but they did take me out. It wasn't critical strike, but rather impale, but the point stands. Only a fool charges a weapon with it pointed at the guy they are attacking. The front guy blocks me, then the other uses the critical strike/impale. Job done.

As for changing stats, that is also crap. I stopped that dead in it's tracks last event when it was suggested by other NPCs. We all play by the rules. Changing stats is minor league cheating. PCs do a good strategy and good for them. It's up to the NPCs to up their game.
Last edited by dier_cire on Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by GM_Chris »

Yep as I said I am commenting more on the NPC horde swinging 1 vrs leve 4 warrior and a tree.

It is cool though I can adjust on my side.
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Post by GM-Phil »

And to be honest Chris, as PC's a lot of us can tell when a Gm or NPC gets frustrated beacuse the Pc's came up with a good tactic to counter the enemies.. and suddenly the NPC's are using different skills than they were a second ago, exactly the skills needed to screw the PC's.. it is a cheesy tactic and one I hate to think that GM'swould use..

If the Pc's beat you with what you got..then so be it, there are always other plots and such where they may fail... I thought this was a role-playing game where we are here to have fun.. not be PC vs. GM?

Now I understand NPC's may have something that does counter the PC tactic, but at least in my eyes I can usually tell when the NPC gets frustrated and suddenly learns new abilities on the fly.. such as in your saying that when you see a warrior backed against a wall, you will just start swinging 2 until he backs off.. If you really want to piss players off and send them to another LARP, be my guest..

and for note there is no anger in this statement if anybody reads into it.. I am just pointing out observations i have made over the last few years of playing.
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Post by GM_Chris »

Hmm let me put this a new way.

I will make sure all of my monsters have a non interruptable charge skill that allows them to swing 2 with a 5 count.

So as a warrior you can go Def matrix, but then please count on us swinging 2 every 5 count.

I think this is fair. No rule change and I have an easy way to do monsters. It also does not make all our monsters overpowering against PC's
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Post by dier_cire »

Woah. I have no issue with NPCs switching tactics mid fight as long as they die first. It's the same as us going in, fighting and discovering we need a different tactic. Not cheesy at all.

As for every monster swinging 2, why not have some monsters swing 3 for a 5 count? aka that monster has Critical Stike. tada, look a regular skill. Not every monster would have this and it is interruptable. Non inruptable is just an excuse for either poor planning, fighting ability, or both. If you run off by yourself as a monster and then can't charge due to this, well, you can't blame the PCs. Now, if you stick next to your shielded partner, you'll be much better off and be able to get those 3s off.

Use the rules to create monsters. 1 damage 10 life critters are boring and dumb. Vince and held off the entire group last event with two empaths. You don't need new skills, you need monsters with regular skills and know how to use them together.
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Post by General Maximus »

Eric and I came up with horde rules 2 years ago and have repeadly sent them in. If you want, I'll send them again.

Try those out and see if that resolves the issue
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Post by GM_Chris »

I did not like the horde rules.

We will use a variety of tactics depending on the NPC to PC makeup and the plot.

I do want to get rid of randomy changing tactics as that happens alot.

I also want to get rid of a mass varity of monsters and creatures that are impossible to physrep and instead go with a theme.
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Post by General Maximus »

What did you not like about the horde rules Chris?
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Wow

Post by Zaire »

Wow

This whole discussion and the comments made by GM Chris probably just stopped me from ever attending another FH event.

A skill exists in the rulebook that, when used in certain situations, allows a character a strategic advantage. Not something that will always be useful, but there are possibilities. Instead of thinking outside the box a GM states he'll just change NPC stats to deal with it.

Hmmm.. yeah. This is why I quit KANAR.
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Post by GM_Chris »

No I am just greatly misunderstood.

Let me explain NPC's

Random monsters tend to be very fluid. We tend to have a group of 3 or more with 1 of the people who's job it is to make sure an encounter is challenging. This person is usally a leader mini boss type. The mini boos type will usualy change their skills depending on the makeup of the PC crew within a set min and max. Like a leader type playing a skeleton is not goeing to start swinging 30 crush or something.

To be clear this is not about the GM crew winning. I don't care about winning. Infact I believe NPC's are designed to loose.

Now my issue with this skill has nothing to do with a strategic advantage. my problem with the skill is that it makes a PC invoulnerable in certain situations with 0 chance to hurt the PC. As other people have said though there are alot of ways around it because there are alot of skills that counter it, but that is because PC's are usually not made the same as NPC's/ Rarely, if ever do you have an entire group of PC's on a plot where everyone can only swing 1, but with NPC's that is (was) the case. Soooo if all NPC's can only do 1, and a PC say lies on the ground they become invoulnerable.

Zaire I know the type of player you are so ask yourself if that even sounds cool?
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Post by General Maximus »

Chris,

I understand your point and how chessy it is for PC's to do that with Defensive matrix. But, when they do that, they take themselves out of the battle and leave their friends and allies to take on the monsters themselves. I personaly would be pissed at the PC that did that and alowed their fellows to die while they stayed alive.

But, how is said tatic much differnt than 3 people working as a team. 2 in front holding shield and weapons using defensive matrix to absorbe damage and 1 person in the back with a pole arm swinging 3 damage. It would be very hard if not impossible to break through the teams defenses and while they are handing out the damage and killing the monsters.

And, younever said what you did not like about the horde rules. :D
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Post by GM-Mike »

I just want to say because this comes up from time to time that nobody should quit a game because of something they have read on a forum because the odds of not fully understanding the intent of what is written, especially with the quality of writers that we have here at FH (both PCs and GMs alike), are astronomically high.

The players need to understand that there is NOTHING we can do that is positive in this situation, and that is frustrating for us. We could allow all of our monsters access to all of the skills that the pcs have access to, but then we will get flack for making the encounters too powerful. We could allow all of the monsters the ability to swing for 2 damage but we will get flack for making the encounters too powerful. (Hell we all ready get flack for that and I feel like our monsters swing one over half of the time.) We could allow monsters to adjust stats on the fly in an attempt to make the encounter more fun and exciting, but we will get flack for cheating and will get accused of wanting to win all the time against the players (none of us ever want to win, by the way--we're prepared to win, we're not trying to lose, but we don't want to win for what it's worth). We could have all the monsters swing one but then we will either get flack that the game is too easy or, no matter the number of monsters that there are, we could have a stalemante eventually by someone defensive matrixing against a tree or lying on the ground and the battle will go on for hours (we've been there and have done that).

Everything we do and everything we suggest is done with the intention of making the game more enjoyable for everyone involved, us and you included. Obviously, we are not doing all of this for the money since we run the game at a loss. We are trying to create a game that everyone can come to and have a good time at, ourselves included. We, the GM staff, are all PCs at heart, will always route for the PCs even when we have to, by necessity, oppose you. We oppose you with zeal to make the game that much more epic and dramatic, but we still route for you.

Now back to the issue at hand. Aaron, the tactic is much different than 3 people WORKING AS A TEAM. We want a team game. The rules have been designed to facilitate that. Defensive Matrix appears to have some loopholes that go against the original conception. It was never intended to be a skill that should you find yourself all alone in the dark with a whole bunch of piddly monsters that you could simply lie down and wait for the cavalry to arrive. It wasn't intended to be a skill that would allow the warrior to stand in front and not only take all of the damage from the monsters but also be able to disrupt anything cool going on. No, the intent was simply to allow the warrior to be a really good meat shield while the friends in back charged their skills and took out the beasts. Somehow, we have strayed away from that and have frollicked into the land of cheese.
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Post by General Maximus »

I can see the cheese if people are laying down. That is just dumb.

I personaly want to see the NPC using more PC skill's. It adds more to combat's and forces people to work together. Some people said last event was to dangerous. I say it was great and I had alot of fun and I was able to use all my skills, not just a few. Simple hack and slash gets boring, I like to use tatics and have to think in combat.

But, you can please everyone and there will be a couple people bitching always.

I say, if you need to bitch or complain, give constructive critism and ideas to fix said issue. Bitching does nothing but get people angery. Be part of the solution not the problem. :D

As for defense matrix, I would like to add something to the rules that you must have a weapon in hand and must be on your feet to use the skill. No laying down stupid stuff.

Standing against a tree or building issue, I say have the NPC's start using some low level PC skill's to counter that. If you are by yourself and surround, you should get you but kicked.

Maybe implment some basic horder rules. If you out number a person 5 to 1, you get the press skill for free? It's an idea.
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Post by GM-Mike »

That's a thought. Another idea might be to make it so swinging 0 does not disrupt charges and then the monsters can do their brief charge up for more damage thing like we often do :wink:

You are right, though, we can't please everyone, and we understand that. Constructive criticism is preferrable to name calling, threats of bodily harm, snide remarks, incredulous looks, and food poisoning...not saying any of these things have happened, but I'd rather they didn't.
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Post by cole45 »

food poisoning was totally IN game damn it.
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