List of Suggested Rule Changes


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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:10 am

What I do not like on your idea, is that you need 2 people to bring back a person past -10 or at least 2 chip draws, or the healer happens to have mystic healing.

That seems harsh to me.

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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:13 am

I just wanted to say that IF we made a change, I would be in favor of the -9 anyone can heal and then a master healer only after that using the surgery skill. I see now why Chris wanted it so the surgeon had to bring the person all the way up to 0 and I'm fine with that. Add in the mystic surgeon and all is good.

I bring this up again because I'm not sure how this doesn't meet all of the concerns you have with a bare minimum of rule changes. I'm just making sure that I know what you guys are looking for. I don't buy the lethality argument because again we have some control over that.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:32 am

Putting in a neg 10 cap would help us not be so crazy which would probably lower the over all perception of deadliness in the game. :)

I mean those 30 damage things we throw woul go away quick since those could be a death sentence.

Think of it this way. The game would have much more of the feel that it did during the first event where no one had mystic heal, potions, or surgery and some how you all managed to survive except Doug who well wanted to die
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:35 am

Hey, I can live with it. But once people understand what it turly means, you will have bitching!

Right now, a healer by themselves can bring a person back from -25 on there own with no chip draw. Using only path skills and 2 level 4 potions

Now, they can only bring a person back from -10 on there own with no chip draw with only using path skills. To me, if feels the power of the healer has decreased and forces them to take mystic heal to be really useful in healing negatives. And that only means they can only heal -18 or so life with out help.

Also, the healers transference skill is only useful at -9 or higher, and the healers stability skill (+3 minutes) seems useless. If they can't heal them with surgry, the victim is dead, what need is there to extend there bleed to death time?

If I was a healer, I would feel upset about this change becasue is makes alot of my skill not as useful. That's just my take.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:56 am

See now that is a pretty god argument. :)

The extend life skill, the way I always invisioned it from creation, was 1 healer with multiple patients. The healer would need to extend the life of 1 person while they perform surgery on another. I never saw extend life as a means to get more potions down a person's throat.

A healer can heal 10 points withough the need of a potion. That is pretty cool.

We could say people can only heal to -5 before surgery is needed. :)
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:50 pm

Chris and Mike,

Explain why the surgeon needs to bring a person to zero? I'm not understanding that logic. It only enforces more chip draws and limits the deep negatives people can go. AKA, making the game more lethal.

You have heard enough from me, what do other people think?

I know if this rule is put into place, I will be playing differently and be more carefully in combat. I'll probly pull out of battle once my armor and combat relfex's are gone.

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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:03 pm

Like Chris said, it's all where you want the point of lethality to be. Chris is thinking the point should be at -10. You guys are thinking -20. The rationale for the -10 is that it is relatively uncommon for players to go deep into negatives. This may or may not be correct. The argument is simply at what point should the surgeon be necessary. If going deep into negatives is not really common, say one person an event, then making a rule that chips are not being drawn until -20 seems fairly pointless. If the vast majority of instances of people going into negatives occur in the single digits (-1 through -9), which is the case currently, then perhaps the point of lethality should be moved up a bit. If no other rules are changed, you can still come back from a hefty number, given potions administered between chip draws, possibly mystic heal, and whatnot.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:27 pm

OK, I buy in.

But first aid is useless to the master healer along with the other skills I mentioned before.

I agree with the need to start drawing chips at -10. I have no issue with that, but it seems very clunky.

The only difference between this and Eric idea is Eric's idea is less lethal and alows to come back from greater negtives and is more stream lined.

Your idea creates a stituation where alot of the healer skills suffer in power and usefulness, forces reversed math (example. The surgeon heals the victim to -9, than he has to drw more chips to heal them up to 0 or call for a friend to give the person potions.) It seems counter intoitive.

Mike, since I have your number, I'll you later today if you are available to discuss. I think we all are on the same page, but are just looking at it from different angels. One of the problems with a forum.

Also it looks like you guys don't care if a person is killed to just rez them because it is fast and or cheaper to do so. Is that correct. If so, just change Eric's rez rule. Negative damage does not transfer to rezing.

I personaly think it is chessy, but, that's just me.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:56 pm

Your idea creates a stituation where alot of the healer skills suffer in power and usefulness, forces reversed math (example. The surgeon heals the victim to -9, than he has to drw more chips to heal them up to 0 or call for a friend to give the person potions.) It seems counter intoitive.


You are incorrect.

Our proposal was once -10 is reached the only skill that can be used is surgery. There is no clunky math. Atleast it is not any more clunky than Erik's "once you hit -10 you need a surgen" proposal.

Infact Erik's is more clunky.

In Erik's proposal once -10 is reached the surgery skill must be used.

We both have the same lines, but Erik's rules continue

For every -10 past -10 one red chip must be drawn in addition to any other chip.

Our idea stops with rules. His continues.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:11 pm

Jesus...

This is just dumb now. All I put in for was a change to correct a hole. I also decided to throw in the ability to scale lethality. Forget I even offered. I'm glad that in less than a day you've created a system that is far better than my idea.

You don't understand the reason I designed the system I did, and I don't think you will. You don't want to. Enjoy the future pathes with this new system too. It will happen, most likely next off season. They'll be extra rules thrown in. You don't see it, because you only look at the now. You have see the fact that neither system will be final this year.

Tying chip draws to how much life you could heal is a poor decision, it always has been.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:21 pm

Well someone is testy.

It ok I will accept your claim of my over whelming stupidity.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:41 pm

Oh boy - I need to read this thread. :P But just want to comment that Extend Life has proven most useful to me when dealing with deep negatives. It provides a few more minutes to plan out the surgery and gather the necessary components and people.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:11 pm

Exaclty extend life has added drama. The more I read this thread the more I feel there is no problem with the system at all. I understand that people come back from -100, but if it is fun for the player base then I am ok with it.

On the other hand I see the point of others who get annoyed at the -100 thing.

What is funny is Eric's idea is not that far off. My hangup is I really really feel it is clunky to have a system where at -9 everyone can heal but before hand they cannot.

I also feel the "bag" needs to be tied to the skill not death and dieing. If you put in death and dieing that every 10 point healed requires a bag then you are saying that everyone can do everything they want as long as there is a surgen with a bag standing around so someone can draw a chip. It does not say that the healer needs to perform surgery just stand there with a bag and be a random factor for everyone else. I really dislike this.

The change is to put it as part of the surgery skill which is the difference between Eric and our idea. Infact, we could change surgery to say that every chip draw heals say 5 or 10 life instead of 1. This means that a person could potentiall be healed up to -270 or at 5 per chip -135 or at 2 per chip -64

Oh that is assuming no potions can be used.

Same rules, just making 1 change to surgery and 1 change to death and dieing.

Now if we want to make a couple more tweeks we COULD make surgery take 5 minute for the first 10 points and 1 minute for each chip draw. That makes sure first aid is used if they are within the first aid range.

On a side note I have a group heal sugestion. Currently I have seen people use it like an aura of regeneration so perhaps we should make it as such, Say every minute the healer may heal everyone currently in the circle by 1 LP. ..huh neat huh
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:19 pm

The more I have had time to think about all this, and talk to some players who have played healers for quite afew years.. I start to think why change the current Healign system at all.. it seems to work just fine.. In the games I have played the seriousness of death has never been played down and a decent number of people do wind up dying during an event. As an average at least.. What is really the problem I see, and what really should be looked at is Potion use in the negatives.. With the change to Mystic Heal that Wayne posted, I see poitions being the only other factor in people coming back from very low negatives..

I mean right now, without an potions a Master Healer could easily bring someone back from -13, (given the appropiate time), without breaking a sweat..and honestly i would say -13 to -1 is probably a goos average that people get knocked to.

i know at Winterhaven, where we lack any amount of Master Healers, and have no where near the potion base i saw at FH.. battles were very hard and a lot of people got brought down.. and with only 1 or 2 healers around that meant a lot of work got put on people who had managed to pick up first aid or Sages who had mimiced it..

To me it seems a lot of this discussion has come about because people had been able to be brought back from extremely deep negatives.

Well there is a very easy solution to all this without changing a single rule we currently have.. and I saw it mentioned before.. merely make a negative cap that when reached means you automatically die. I know the number will be run around.. what is too high what is too low.. but I would say something in the -30 range would be good.. that is pretty deep where a Healer would hav very little to no chance to save someone anyway.. and it would be about equivalent to someone dropping at 0 and being hit by a 30 magic.. in my mind that body is paste!

Now what you could also do is add that if you die through massive damage then you add 2 chips to your ressurection draw in addition to the normal 2 to begin with.

And if you really want to stop seeing such abuse of potion, then perhaps you shoudl really look at Alchemy.. seeing in my mind that it is the most broken discipline in this game.. it needs to be better regulated and more focused, at least in the beginning it was supposed to be Alchemy did one thing, Arcanes did another, and Sages did their thing.. Now it seems as if Alchemy can do damn near anything, Arcanes have some freedom but takes half an event to cast anything if you know a problem is coming.. and Sages well, perhaps need a wider range of things they can buff..

I have said it to some people, but in a game with as narrow a focus as FH, (which I do like in many ways by the way).. When you give certain disciplines the ability to research a wide variety of abilities, be it spells, potions and such that start to overlap with other disciplines and Paths you start to wonder what the point of playing those other disciplines is.. If 98% of your disciplines are x (ability) = x (abiliy) all the time.. the 2% of disciplines where x (ability) = ? becomes quite powerful.

well this wound up being longer than I thought.. but after 2 hours of sleep and my kid in my ear.. thats what I got, those are my feelings.. like them or not I mean no offense to anyone.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:14 pm

Great post Adian!
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