A Question about Armor


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Post Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:39 am

A Question about Armor

I was putting a costume together for Winter Haven and I thought this was a good opportunity for an FAQ. I am going to ask my armor question, but then I would like the FH GM's to not answer right away to see what the players and other GM's think.

Items:

Aluminum Chain goes down to mid thigh short sleeved:

Aluminum Chain with hardened leather breast plate and Pauldrens:

Gimili's helm from LOTR (basically a metal open faced helmet):

Metal shin plates (does NOT go over knee):

Hardened leather Bracers:

Thanks!
Chris
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Post Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:18 am

Aluminum Chain goes down to mid thigh short sleeved:

Aluminum Chain with hardened leather breast plate and Pauldrens:

Heavy torso. 3 points.

Leather paulrons + Hardened leather bracers = Medium arms. (Pauldrons cross a joint.) .

medium arms = 2 points.

The Sleeves of the armor shirt MIGHT cover. IN that case, heavy arms. 3 points.


Metal shin plates + chain skirt = 2 points. They don't cross a joint.

Metal open faced helmet = real medium helm. that's one combat reflexes.
It MIGHT count as a full helmet if 50% of the face is covered. which adds a life point.
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Post Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:31 pm

Chain is heavy in my book. The added leather is just more-so. Heavy torso - 3 points.

Chain upper arm - heavy. Hardened leather lower arm - medium. It's a full arm, to be sure, but heavy or medium? I'd say 2.5 points.

Chain upper legs - heavy. Plate lower legs - heavy. Heavy full legs - 3 points.

Gimli's helm has a nose guard and cheek plates. I'd say it's full coverage, which makes it Real, Heavy. 1 CR, 1 LP.

Total - 8 AP (8.5 rounded down), 1 CR, 1 LP
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Post Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:37 pm

only problem is that the legs (chain upper) and metal greeves don;t cross a joint. They can't have full heavy with out it.
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Post Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:48 pm

I'd say based on our past, medium all around.

7 armor + 1 life.

normally, chain is medium. hardened leather is medium. chain legs are medium (i'm giving this as it and the legs are covering 75%).

Granted, technically, the chain is "fake" and the legs are technically worth 0 points, but that's more of a chapter gm type call. This is also assuming the breastplate doesn't cover enough to count on it's own.

So rule lawyering it would be:

4 armor + 1 life (depending on the material of the helm) and you'd have to take it off to repair it.
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:35 am

The rulebook states chain mail is heavy. It is in fact the first listed example of heavy.
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:46 am

The topic was already mentioned on the forums and chain is only heavy if the links are tightly weaved and it's heavy gauged. Most chain is medium.

There is no comparison to chain and plate. Plate restricts both mobility and is heavy (lbs). Chain is only heavy (lbs). Hardened leather only restricts mobility. There is no reason for anyone to wear plate from a tactical standpoint if it's always heavy. I'm more than happy to wear Nelkie's chainmail if it counts as heavy but I'd consider it unfair to my advantage (I'll still do it though).

Chain has always been medium, and has never been an issue. If someone doesn't want to wear plate in some form, they shouldn't get the bonus of it.
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:01 am

I agree with you 100 percent.it is a totally unfair oversight.but the book clearly states chainmail is heavy. Winterhaven uses book literal rules and until it shows up in the rule update forum'it will be heavy.
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:45 pm

Interesting stuff

Here are my thoughts.

1) alluminum could be considered "fake" since it is lighter than steel. Also it tends to be a looser weave
2) Chain breastplate is ALOT heavier than a steel BP.
3) Combo armor. I know from GM talks a person who wore hardened leather over top chain usually gets bumped up a catagory.
4) Though alluminum is not as heavy as steel it is about as heavy as a steel plate BP and that would be considered real.
5) alluminum is a metal. I would be pretty upset to be int he "fake" catagory with a person wearing cloth costume chain.


Basicaly I would rule the thing heavy all around with MAYBE the legs going down to medium. Then again I might be generous if the costume simply looks cool enough AND is heavy and restrictive enough.

My current issue with how we judge things, and this will make the engineers cringe, is we have gotten too specific. Should I bring a calaper to events to make sure 12 guage vs 11 guage is being used? How crazy do we need to get?

FH GM"s what do you thinK?
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:54 pm

Travis, chain is both heavy and medium in the rules. I asked on the forums about this change and was told about the weave and gauge (which is not in the book). (this was in the assassin or the helmet post)

Chris, Aaron's chain shirt and my armor weigh about the same. Where do you get the numbers for chain being heavier than plate?

While I agree that armor is subject to the gm staff of the event, I think we need some decent guidelines. I don't think just because you layer multiple types, you should get a bonus. It looks cooler but it makes it tough to gauge a foe's armor category. I think the book should be very clear in what the rules are for armor, however tag it with "Final say on armor category and points is up to GM approval"

How hard is cloth and light leather as light, chain and hardened leather as medium, plate as heavy?
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:59 pm

Man, you are so right about it being in both. That's annoying.


We NEED conoistant armor rules. we had some pissed off players when we told them their leather armor was medium. It was the coolest most badass leather ver, but it was still medium. someone told them it was heavy. Too many times do players go from GM to GM to get the answer hey want. (and in fact, I was told to do when I started.)
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:19 pm

Why would someone think it was heavy? Hardened leather has always been medium. Of course, many people don't even know their own skills so I guess that shouldn't be a surprise...
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:49 pm

Leather is always light or medium
chain has been medium and heavy

Problem I have is I do not want to get so ridged with rules we loose creativity control.

What we want to encourage is real over fake, heavy and inflexable over light and flexable, cool looking over un cool looking.

I do not want to be walking around with measure armor or testing the guage or the weave or what have you.

We need simple rules and the GM staff should probably give players a bit of leway when something is in the middle.

Forexample, if someone has medium strictly by the rules, but man based on the criteria above you could see giving heavy then give it heavy as long as it obviously should not be heavy...IE just leather.

Anyways I would like to get some thoughts by some people who are less on the engineering side of the thinking spectrum :)
Chris
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Post Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:56 pm

Chris, you do realize that well defined rules have little to do with GM creative control, correct?

As for gauge and such, CARPS did that for years and never had a problem. Why is this such an issue now? You take the person at their word unless there's an obvious issue (like me saying I have 10 gauge). My armor is 16 gauge steel and 10oz leather. No need for a caliper now.

Also, I'm curious as to why you'd give yourself heavy (under the current ruleset)? Do you want this to be heavy under some future new rules?

Ultimately, I'm against any 'armor is whatever the GMs dictate' kinda rule as I'll have light armor (or just costume). :D
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Post Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:30 am

Im not saying that I advocate "What ever the GM's feel" as a rule set.

I just want to increase flexability, maintain fairness, and encourage cool looking costumes.
Chris
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