Levels


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Post Mon May 07, 2007 9:34 am

Levels

Why is it that you can't bank levels? The only possible reason I can see is not to have a character come in at a higher level than 0 but what difference does it really make? So you bring in a character that is higher than level 0, it actually makes alot more sense that a higher level character might actually make it to Haven than a 0 level character who would most likely die in the trying. If you NPC for an event do you not get to put those levels towards any character you want? If you pay for the event and get your levels you should be able to use that as you want as laong as it's in 4 level blocks.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 1:11 pm

Several reasons

1) Because we do not apply levels to players we apply them to characters. (This is a logistic reason, especially when dealing with multiple chapters)

2) This is especially true in our game that levels past 20 matter less and less. There is no reason for a person to not play a character to level 20 and then 5 years later sayy they have 5 20th level characters. Why is this a peroblem? First see number 1. Second, different paths have different skills that requiere some amount of learning. It is best to make that a bit slower.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 2:23 pm

GM_Chris wrote:Several reasons

1) Because we do not apply levels to players we apply them to characters. (This is a logistic reason, especially when dealing with multiple chapters)


Wouldn't it be easier to assign them to the player and then have the characters as sub-categories for the player? It would seem easier to recognize errors like their levels between different characters adding up wrong. In fact it would seem like the only practical check for that or searching the database for all the players characters(assuming you even know the name that they have for characters at other chapters) and adding up all their characters points. The player name is the one constant, the characters they play is the variable.

GM_Chris wrote:2) This is especially true in our game that levels past 20 matter less and less. There is no reason for a person to not play a character to level 20 and then 5 years later sayy they have 5 20th level characters. Why is this a peroblem? First see number 1. Second, different paths have different skills that requiere some amount of learning. It is best to make that a bit slower.

Whats the big deal if someone banks 5 years worth of pts and then wants to have 5 20th level characters? In a game where you can pretty much max out your characters skill progression over half a season between 2 chapters why are you worried about the pace of progression? You can learn a lifetimes, or atleast a generations worth of stuff in about 6 months or so. Perhaps there should be more incentive to continue progression in one character like say taking the hero point award back to every 20 after 20th or possibly giving a life pt more often instead of having a rule that limits the players use of what they've earned by playing and paying.

If the rules are really as simple as it's percieved they are why is there a worry that you need time to learn a skillset from a different path, especially if that person has been to enough events to have multiple 20th level characters.

What do you do about levels for NPCing an entire event? What if you ever decide to give levels as a bonus or reward for something?
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 2:38 pm

Those are good points.

Another thing I have thought of is it does seem anti roleplay.

I can't think of a game that assigns levels to a player and not a chracter.

Forexample, I go to a minds eye game for 2 years and in the first year I become X amount of points, but then I want to bank the next years points.
Then come in as a second super vamp.

Just feels wrong to bank
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 4:13 pm

I agree that in that type of game, minds eye games, it does feel wrong to bank points. Yet, that is a very different game where points are concerned. A person in that game does not virtually max out at a certain point in their characters career. A player in those games could conceivably "one-shot" other players if they are powerful enough.

Final Haven rules, on the other hand, make player "one-shot" quite difficult. In fact, these rules make it very possible for people who are ill physically equipped for foam weapon combat to still have a fighting chance. It is the reason I like this games combat rules in comparison to rock, paper, scissors.

Banking points in Final Haven rules seem to be not too serious of a concern. I have realized that some players will always look for the most powerful and broken combos in order to look 'cool'; rather than to role play well. That will always happen, no matter what you do to any game. It's this concern that I usually see in your ideas, Chris. I've felt the same burden at times. I'd always like players in games I've ran to come up with interesting concept, rather than world destroyers. I don't feel limiting players from 'banking points' in order to come in to the game with more seasoned characters is too terrible of an ordeal. I could see possibly creating a limit as to how high a level one character can come into a game off of 'banked' points. Therefore a person couldn't play the game for 10 years on one level 0 character and then later make two Nth level characters out of no where to destroy the land or the plots. And who would want to stay level 0 that long without having good role playing reasons. :)
Last edited by Tullus on Mon May 07, 2007 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 5:04 pm

Currently I am on the defensive which is a horrible place to be.

Could I please get some reasons why a person would want to bank points?
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 10:02 pm

I do not see this as being an average practice. I feel the reason behind wanting to 'bank points' would be just what I said. Also what Eric said, to begin a character slightly more seasoned than no experience at all. It's the difference between having a diplomat from a well established group come into the game not knowing much about how he or she managed to help past group and having a diplomat come into the game with the bare knowledge needed for said character background. The knowledge he or she would have had for that characters story.

I will personally not be 'banking' my points no matter future decisions, for I always play with only one character. *For money reasons and character development.* And my motives of speaking in favor of something like this wasn't to attack you, so please do not take it as an attack. I just felt a moderate and control version of this wouldn't be detrimental to the game. It could in fact show a gesture of trust, while still being controlled in spirit of the game.
Last edited by Tullus on Mon May 07, 2007 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 10:24 pm

Why would you want to start out with more levels?
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 10:54 pm

Bringin' 'em in.

GM_Chris wrote:Why would you want to start out with more levels?


Sometimes it's a matter of just being able to come in as a character who ban be a little more than a meat shield, or just stream-lined to do one thing rather than not being able to do much at all. Haven't you ever liked starting a D&D game at 3rd level rather than 1st?

Yes, there are mini-maxers and folks who want to totally create a combo-character in a fell swoop faster or more easily from the start. However from a story point too, it kind of sucks to bring in a character who's history is that they are well-trained, or have been doing something their whole life... and in order to be more well-rounded, said character just can't perform when they're introduced. So having those extra points are nice.

That's why I think being able to bank 4 levels for a new character is just fine. It gives you just a little more room to move points around and help round out a character. Yes, some players just play the points game. But It's nice still to be a Master-something and be rounded out in other ways too from the time I bring my character in.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 6:38 am

You can come in as fourth if you retire your character or your character dies
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 7:02 am

GM_Chris wrote:You can come in as fourth if you retire your character or your character dies


... or if you bring in your new character for the last 5 minutes of the game?
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 7:12 am

nope levels are not applied till the end of the event.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 7:14 am

Course, if you did that, he'd have to find resources to survive in the last five minutes. That and you'd have to meet the oog time peroid to switch characters (do we even still do that?).

After your first event you should never be playing 0 level character for more than part of an event.

My big gripe against banking points is there is no accountability. You can come in as a crap character over and over again, and die or kill freely with no repercussion. I did exactly this at Carps and then walked in at 120pts (which was decent back then) witout having to risk the character. Imagine playing an 8th level character for 3-4 years, then poof walking in as a 60th. There aren't many characters in game over 60 right now due to attrition.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 7:22 am

Since this was posted because of a conversation I had I will be specific for you Chris.

The past 2 games I attend at FH I didnt add those levels to Lao, because I want to go to WH. My purpose was to add those 8 levels to a new character at WH for a variety of reasons.

Reason 1: I hate this games level 0 system. I feel it is far to restrictive and I dont enjoy the game as a level 0 character.

Reason 2: The concept I came up with for my WH characters seemed rather far fetched as a level 0 character. Part of the character background revolved around a certain skill keeping him alive. Could it be done as a level 0 character, yes it could...does it suck...yes it does.

I would also like to point out that from a logistics point, not only is it easier to track a player then a series of characters....but you guys as GM's arent very good at that aspect of the game. When was it that you had to post for everyone to send in what level they thought they were cause you guys had not been tracking levels properly, or lost them, or something?

I can also think of several examples where people had been allowed to do exactly what I am trying to do and being told that I cant do. The only difference is I held the levels for several months instead of immediately spending the 4 levels from an event on a new character.

I would also point out that if its logistics that is the issue. Why isnt my character sheet automatically updated when I attend an event. Shouldnt a new version of my character with +4 levels be waiting for me in my folder each event?

If the issue is really about role-play..then why does it really matter if I bring in a level 4, level 12, or level 80 character. A roleplayer will role-play, a power gamer will power game...that is just the way things are as they both enjoy different aspects of the game.

I guess ultimately my point is. I spend money to play the game and have fun. I dont enjoy the game as a level 0 character, and if I have to play a level 0 character again in this system then I would just as soon spend my money elsewhere doing something else. So instead of not playing I attempt to find a compromise so that I could still enjoy the game...that compromise for me was to take some levels that I earned while playing Lao and apply them to a new character so that I can have fun. When I originally approached a GM and asked them about it I was told it was fine...now that WH is less then 2 weeks away I am being told I cant and I am a little disappointed.

My original solution was to simply not play (as I said...I dont enjoy the game at level 0) but after talking to Erik about it yesterday he posted and now I feel like I need to clear up the issue and provide an explanation.

I hope this helps to take you off the defensive Chris.

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Post Tue May 08, 2007 9:41 am

You know, I really could be swayed on this. I can see everyones point. I still think there would need to be a cap though. Maybe max starting level of 12th?
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