A Question about Armor


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Post Thu May 03, 2007 10:14 am

We have not changed armor rules in a few years is what I was referring to.

I don't know anything about the cross chapter armor thing.
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Post Fri May 04, 2007 12:57 pm

Oddly, there has been no discussion of footwear. How does a real boot differ from a fake boot?

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Post Mon May 07, 2007 5:21 pm

why would aluminum not be heavy? it is a metal
I was told leather was heavy at first and then found out in winter haven it's not. Now I have someone makeing me alum. armor and now it's fake. not cool guys i'm pissing my money away.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 5:56 pm

This is not a forum where final rules are posted. We are just kicking things around. As it stands now, we have been calling aluminum chain real. One reason it wouldnt be called real though is the fact it weights about 1/3rd as much as real. My aluminum chain weights 14 pounds and my steel chain weights 45 pounds.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 9:54 pm

See? Right here we have an excellent example of the weight issue coming at odds with the costume issue. This is not the SCA. We're not looking for authentic period costume. We are looking for good looking fantasy wear, and I can't see why the real-life weight of the armor should matter a lick when it comes to armor category.

I understand the desire to reward players who weigh themselves down with real steel armor, but with the options you've given yourself you're punishing those who don't want to wear heavy armor. You've only got two variables, category and authenticity, and that's going to screw the folks who wear aluminum. Chances are they paid good money for an aluminum suit (as Atreus is doing right now), it's metal, and it's certainly real (as opposed to the plastic or cord variants)... why shouldn't it be real, heavy armor?

Moreover, it LOOKS real. It jingles, it shines, it's cold in the morning. That's the point. It complements the character's costume and adds to the in-game environment. Who gives a rip if it weighs 14 or 45 pounds? If it allows someone to play their warrior character and still be vaguely comfortable on the battlefield, more power to them.

I once again ask, what are our priorities here? Looks? Weight? Coverage?
Authenticity? Composition?

I'd advocate prioritizing looks and coverage. Screw weight, composition, and authenticity - it's a game. Anyone who can accept that a bag full birdseed is a flaming fireball can damn well accept that Atreus's real aluminum chainmail is real heavy armor.

And just to cover this base one more time, I don't give a rip if people can't mechanic out someone's armor total. I know the min-maxers and rulemasters don't like it, but that's just too bad. So long as the system is fair, I'll come down on the side of roleplaying and storytelling every time - and I'm not alone.

Just because people don't have the time or patience to wade through post after post of rules doesn't mean that they don't care. Our cadre of programmers and engineers get into this sort of thing, and that's perfectly cool, but we story folk have a voice too. It will be heard.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 9:58 pm

word, Taki. Word.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 10:21 pm

the only difference between real and fake is you have to take it off. Whoopty doo. You stil have the in combat advantage. The bonus has nothing to do with what it looks like. Real armor could look like crap and still be real. While the GMs may have given some good looking fake stuff real status, it's the exception. I didn't have to detail each plate and I certainly didn't do it to be "real" (to be honest car paint is less real). I did it to protect my work and show off some art skills. You're still confusing "real" armor with the costume life bonus.

Honestly, making armor without first checking that it achieves what your desire is a bad idea if your intention is to max. I've built three suits over time and am in process of the fourth incarnation. Expecting to get it perfect the first time is a fantasy.
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Post Mon May 07, 2007 10:41 pm

Great post Taki and really sums up the point of this post.

In our expierence real armor tends to look beter more of the time than fake armor. That plastic armor I buy would look great, but I remembered that it would not sound right. It would sound like plastic. Not sure yet if I care, but it is something to consider. The fact is that plastic fake armor I link to is the exception, fake tends to look fake.

So basically I would say the GM's want to discourage crappy looking armor and costumes. Unfortunatly we tend to be maybe a bit PC and instead of using a subjective term we are forced into a spec sheet.

The next thing that we consider is a sence of fairness. If you have not noticed half the posts on this board are by people thinking they are getting screwed in one way or another. With armor people who are weighed down by 60 pounds of armor are at a combat dissadvantage to those who are wearing 10 pounds.

SO I guess that is the problem. How do we focus on giving out points to good looking armor (thus encouraging good looking armor) without being too subjective for the rule engineers who feel screwed without a spec sheet, while balancing the reality of combat effectivness going down as armor encombrance goes up.

-Chris

P.S. We are not talking about money for those people without as much money afraid you are being screwed by those who have money. Kevin at CARPS wore a loin cloth as a costum and IMO was one of the best on the field.

:)
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 12:08 am

Thanks Chris. I'll tell you what I would do to call it up the middle.

First, armor physreps would have to meet the coverage requirements to be considered its appropriate category and get full points. Failing to meet those requirements would result in a one category penalty.

Physreps for the categories would be based on the compostion of the armor.

Light: Padded and soft leather.

Medium: Reinforced/hardened leather.

Heavy: Metal

Mixed suits would be assigned the lesser of their qualifying categories unless given a GM waiver.

The real vs. fake decision would be based on composition. Real armor would not need to be removed to be repaired and would be eligible for the exceptional bonus (see below).

There would also be an "exceptional" bonus that could be applied either to armor OR costume, but not both. This bonus, which would be at GM discretion, could award a point or two of life, armor, or combat reflexes to costumes or armor that the GM's considered exceptional. Note that this is in addition to the two point costume bonus (which, for the record, is something about which I am not at all confused). This would also provide a means to reward those who bear the burden of heavy armor without penalizing anyone.

Players would always have the right to "opt down" their armor to a lower category for gameplay purposes.

The exceptional bonuses and waivers for armor would be determined and detailed at the creation of the tags. You could stipulate one GM or two, but they should be accepted across chapters. Costumes would be juried in the same way, with a special tag given to represent the bonus.

I'd run it something like that. Simple, flexible, and generally intuitive. Sure, someone could outright lie and say they got heavy armor for their soft leather, but that kind of cheese weaseling is blatantly transparent. The tags would be dated and noted to prevent people from going from GM to GM or chapter to chapter until they got the bonus they wanted, and I think the very limited nature of the bonuses (a max of two additional soak - that's less than a second of combat most events.) means that even the worst potential abuses would be negligible.

My two cents, anyway.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 6:58 am

See, I can't go for incre4asing soak further. We are already creeping back into the realm before soak got knocked down (I'm at like 14 or 15 life) so increasing it more just puts us further in that hole.

Also, I still can't support chain as heavy. It doesn't restrict movement. I like the light doesn't hinder you much, medium is weight or loss of movement, and heavy is both. This is horrendously simple to check and allows for fake heavy to be real medium (if we even keep real and fake).

Now as for what armor looks like, it should be factored into the current costume bonus. If you have crappy armor you don't get the bonus. 2 life should be reason enough. And it doesn't increase the current numbers.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 7:15 am

I should link over an historical website that was saying how effective chain was.

Infact last I checked when people go diving with sharks they choose chain over plate every time. I would assume there is a reason.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 9:12 am

because you can still have full range of motion... :roll:

(which is exactly my point)


At any rate, I was looking over the Carps rules for armor and realized with Doug's blessing we could steal some ideas from that... Maybe instead of benefits to good armor, why not lower the points for bad? Like -2 points per loc for not wearing it, -1 for hockey pads/cardboard. possibly +1 for real. (the +1 does not stack with quality, ie if you wear real armor, like Doug, you get free quality?). The quality may be a bit much, but I'm working on a raw concept at the moment.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 9:48 am

I agree with taki. Everything is fine now we just need clear non subjective rules. Subjective GM rules are biting us in the butt.

This is my suggestion.
Light Is padded or heavy cloth.

Medium is heavy leather

Heavy is metal.

Full coverage means it covers a joint or both parts on either side of the joint.
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Post Tue May 08, 2007 9:50 am

not to be factoid man, but here goes.

Chain offers superb protection against penetrating blows. In fact, it has been proven that a hauberk can withstand a small caliber handgun from a distance. This is the notion that started the modern concept of the bullet proof vest, a series of ball-bearings that disipate energy throughput rather than directly challenge it. A bullet, of course, would punch a hole right through a piece of plate.

When in combat with slashing style weapons and blunt weapons (generally anything swung along an arc), plate mail does astoundingly well. Because of the convex nature of the breastplate and such, most slashes end as glancing blows. Only a very heavy, well landed blow will knock through a suit of well made plate, which runs into the problem of moving. An agile warrior is much more likely to land a good blow on a heavily armored (full plate) warrior than a moderately (chain hauberk) armored warrior. Being able to move in combat is and always will be huge. As my old martial arts instructor would always say, "the best way to block an attack is to not be there".

So...why is chain worth less than plate? (or why are some advocating for such)...I can see Reid's soapbox of movement restriction being strictly a game mechanic balancing device. Guys with the heavy plate will get hit more often, hands down, so the extra point per area is not that big. Therefore, why would anyone ever wear it in a LARP, especially FH? (no knocks on FH, you guys know I love it. It does have a simplified combat system which I find to be a huge asset of the game) Some LARPS have differeing damae types and armor does better against certain types, etc, etc. Not an issue in this game. So, the question:

If, all things mechanically are equal, why would anyone chose Plate over Chain? I dont think they would.

Unless their character wore plate. That is the difference of a role player's roleplayer. If he wears chain, he wears chain.

Chris: As for the shark thing, it is because on the penetration protection.

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Post Tue May 08, 2007 10:10 am

you forgot the bad oriental accent whenever he said it. :D

btw, did you know he's back teaching in Belleville?
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