new helmet rules


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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:13 am

new helmet rules

Under the new rules, can helmets now gain the quality bonus?

(and my helmet is only medium, suckage...)
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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:42 pm

I'm glad someone started this thread. (And reid rulez).

I have a REAL chainmail coif. Would that be real med, or real heavy?
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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:25 pm

just a guess but a chain hood would be real medium.

And re-reading the rules my helm would be considered real or fake light. Considering the new rules on helms, that's pretty lame.

Another point is that the rules on light, medium, and heavy don't match the armor rules. A helm made of leather that covers the head, cheeks, ears, and 50% of face is heavy under these. Material construction is disregarded.

Edit:
Woah... these rules throw a semi big issue with the current armor rules. Why is that only medium helms hinder a user when concerning armor? An empath can wear a heavy helm and still wear light arms and legs and a medium breastplate. But if they wear a medium helm, they have to wear less armor? wtf?
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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:45 pm

Ok, I really REALLY wanted to clarify the rules you have questions about, but....

I cant find them. Did we post them in Updates? or did they go straight into the new book?

I promise I'll give you an answer as soon as I get a chance to look at them again.

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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:09 pm

Ok, I will have to double check this information because I am going from memory, but..

~Yes, material constuction is disreguarded as its the 'coverage' of the helmet that is important for sake of reward.

~I do not believe that the Helms were intended to be 'Quality' just as in the previous rules. (This will be double checked to make sure)

~I believe that in this incarnation, that points awarded for Helms DO NOT count twords armor totals. (again, this will be checked to make sure).


The Awards given for the Helms are based on the fact that Armor (med) is better then nothing (light), and Combet-Reflex's (heavy) is better then Armor (med), and the reward for wearing 'Real' armor is a LP for all.

Rieds Helm (with the open face) for example could be worn as 'real' medium. While someone wearing a Barbute with face coverage would be 'real' heavy. The design of the helmet is now much more important.


I hope this helps a little, and I'll confirm those other rumors as soon as possible.

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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:14 pm

they were never talked about beyond the discussions where it was more or less agreed to leave them alone (minus the one time something very similar to this was brought up to me at an event where I said that they still opened up too many questions).

They are in the rule book below the armor rules.
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Post Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:39 pm

OK, looking at the rule book, the 'Quality' question is cleared up by the statement that Quality adds to one of the 3 locations (Arms, Legs, Body). Helms are NOT included.

Still have to double check the 'Armor' question with the other GMS, but I believe my answer is correct. Helms no longer contribut to Armor Totals.


If you think the new rule still opens up too many questions please feel free to bring them up so we can make sure the confusion is cleared.

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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:05 am

Well i do have a question, my helm has a dragons face mask on it, but i detach it at night for safety sake, does it still count as "real" heavy if i detach it at night?


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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:47 am

If armor points gained from helms does not count towards armor then how is it healed? Plus, how does this affect the light, med, and heavy catagories overall?

I'm still not a fan of the fact that Nelkie's light weight leather helm is now considered heavy while my heavy one is medium. Though how it is that I'm not sure based on the descriptions, if you could explain, it'd be great. I have no real reason to wear a metal helm anymore. I've been meaning to make one from spare leather, and now I'll get more from it without adding the metal?

To me, it still doesn't make sense. Why should a gladiator mask give better protection than a centurion helm?
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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:32 am

To recap the helmet bonus:

Fake Light: No Bonus its just a hat
Real Light: 1 life point
Fake Medium: 1 Armor point
Real Medium: 1 Armor 1 Life Point
Fake Heavy: 1 Combat Reflexes
Real Heavy: 1 Combat Reflexes and 1 life point

I have a REAL chainmail coif. Would that be real med, or real heavy?

Real Medium unless it covers more than 50% of your face (Which some do) then it would be real heavy.

Another point is that the rules on light, medium, and heavy don't match the armor rules. A helm made of leather that covers the head, cheeks, ears, and 50% of face is heavy under these. Material construction is disregarded

Where are you getting that from? The rules state:

An additional location that can be armored is the head and is awarded as follows: A fake light helm that covers only the head will be given 0 armor points. A real light helm that covers only the head will be awarded one life point. A Fake medium helm that covers the head and the ears or cheeks will be given one armor point. A real medium helm that covers the head and ears or cheeks will be given one armor point and one life point. A Fake Heavy helm that covers the head, ears/cheeks, and at least 50% of the face will be awarded one combat reflexes. In addition to this bonus, a real heavy helm will be awarded one life point.

The rules take into account BOTH construction AND coverage. So a full face helm made out of light leather could be considered a real light helm or a fake heavy. A steel helm that covers just the top of the head is a Real light helm because of its lack of coverage. It is along the same lines as the armor rule that a piece of armor needs to cross a joint to be considered a full location.

Why is that only medium helms hinder a user when concerning armor? An empath can wear a heavy helm and still wear light arms and legs and a medium breastplate. But if they wear a medium helm, they have to wear less armor? wtf?

How does this differ from the status quo? Currently in the same situation, the empath wouldnt be able to wear ANY helmet at all. What the new rules do is open up options. What the empath should do if they actually have all the armor phys-reps you list above, is to wear a different type of helmet or "Down-grade" their helmet and call it a light helm instead to get a bonus OR drop a piece of armor and keep their helmet which will allow the player to wear less armor and still get the same armor points and have their mobility less restricted.

I do not believe that the Helms were intended to be 'Quality' just as in the previous rules. (This will be double checked to make sure)

This is correct

I believe that in this incarnation, that points awarded for Helms DO NOT count twords armor totals. (again, this will be checked to make sure).

This is incorrect. Armor catagory is a measure of total armor points (Except combat reflexes)

Nelkie's light weight leather helm is now considered heavy while my heavy one is medium.

It isn't. In order to be considered real heavy it must meet BOTH the construction and coverage criteria. I am assuming it is made out of about 10oz leather which would put it in the medium catagory for construction. It covers almost his entire face so it meets the heavy coverage criteria. So, he could call it fake heavy and get 1 combat reflexes -OR- call it real medium, because it meets the construction criteria and meets the coverage criteria, and get 1 armor and 1 life point.

Your helm is steel and covers your head and ears (You have cheek plates right?). It meets the criteria for heavy construction and medium coverage. So it would be considered real medium and you would get 1 armor and 1 life point.

I have no real reason to wear a metal helm anymore. I've been meaning to make one from spare leather, and now I'll get more from it without adding the metal?

If you had a light leather helm with full coverage, the most you could call it is fake heavy and get 1 combat reflexes. Your current helm gets 1 armor and 1 life point which is much better. As a side note, how is that different than the benefit you get now from your helm?
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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:08 pm

Uhm, basically you have made all helms except medium NOT count towards armor seeing as they are the only ones that actually have "armor" that is given. So basically I can call a leather helm "fake" med or real light and choose between 1 armor or 1 life. Personlly I think if you're going to wear metal on your head, you should get a bonus, Ried's helmet should get you more than the same thing in even thick leather(which could be real med) because of the encumberance.

And I guess I just don't understand how armor is giving you life and combat reflexes. Why is med the only one that gives armor any more?

I thought the whole point of the helm rules before was that a barbute wouldn't give you the same type of advantage that a full suit of light would, which makes sense? A combat reflexes(no upkeep no possible repair or replacement cost) and a life(spendable) is just about the same (if not better) than 3 armor.
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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 pm

There is so much wrong with this, it's not even funny. So a metal helm that only covers the head is fake light (since it's not made of leather)? wtf? :?

And I agree with Temple on the helm having the same effect as full light (which in a warrior's hands 1 cr + 1 life >= 3 armor).

I go into details later.
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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:55 pm

Well here's to being off the assassin and onto something so insignificant that I feel real comfortable with the rest of the book at this point. I am hereby enacting a new rule without any conversation with any other GM and can say with honest opinion that should they have a problem with it, I will personally slap them upside the head. Okay, here it is.

I'm going to call it...

The "we-will-not-screw-you-over" rule. What this basically means is that if you so happen to come across a loophole in the rules that when exploited actually HURTS your character but cannot help exploiting loopholes when you find them, we will step in and give you the option to not ram that stick up your butt and take a different alternative.

To use Reid as an example, I assume what you are talking about is this: Light armor is made out of things life fur and cloth and leather. Thus a helmet made out of metal cannot be light. Since it also does not fit into the coverage rules, the fact that you wasted your hard earned time to create a metal helm after knowing these rules, you seem to find yourself with a fake light helm. Hmm. This is where we step in and remove said stick and say, Wait. Let's see what we can do about this. We would then probably call it a real light helmet instead (which was probably actually the real intention anyway since we are often smarter than we are good writers). We will go ahead and follow the No Cheese rule ourselves and I think everyone will be okay. We will also converse with the Winterhaven staff so that we can all properly identify helm types with the spirit of the rule still in tact.

And the assassin isn't overpowered (sorry, couldn't help myself) :P
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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:21 pm

When determining what your helmet is:

Your helmet can fall into any catagory as long as it meets or Exceeds ALL the criteria for that category. Thus, a metal helm that covers just the top of the head would be a "Real Light Helm" because it EXCEEDS the requirements for "Real Light" for construction and MEETS the requirements for "Real Light" in coverage. I dont know how to be any more clear than that.
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Post Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:45 pm

Well at least I totally understand you. In fact, I understood you before, was just having a little fun
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