Assasin

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dier_cire
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Assasin

Post by dier_cire »

level 4 is overpowered. Was Sleep (the best single hit kill in the game) not powerful enough? Now they can do that and much more, only slightly slower.
That and the addition of 12 vorpal / 30 magic vorpal is just not right (since there are ways to deliver booms via a melee weapon).
This skill could be used with fear to allow for crush anyway.
And in the long run this will require balancing of any damage dealing skill that is added. Too much risk to create a massive break later.
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Post by GM-Mike »

We will of course be looking at items that allow booms through melee weapons. We were and are aware of that and you can count on an adjustment there. And it's 9 vorpal, not 12. It is both parryable and blockable. It requires a target. It takes 45 seconds to do, slightly faster than an Empath can chuck a 30 magic. I saw one 30 magic all of last year. Why? Because that's a long time in combat.

We understand that there is some concern about this skill. We as a staff do not feel that the skill is broken, but I also understand that there are some who will set out to prove otherwise. As always, we welcome your criticism and will make adjustments if necessary.
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Post by GM-Mike »

Come to think of it, I'm okay with the 30 magic vorpal, considering it takes 90 seconds to charge...AND THEN YOU CANT MOVE!

I'd love to see that scene.

"Okay, bring them closer, this way...come on now...I can kill them really...just a little closer..."

Still, 15 magic vorpal seems a touch excessive.
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Post by General Maximus »

I have to agree with Eric. The skill is broken.

You get 3 benifits from this one skill, and the rest of assain is very powerful to.

1. can do 11 vorpal posion as a rouge assaisn with a rouge item. Rouge - 9 critcal strike, rouge item +2 critcal strike = 11 critcal strike or 11 vorpal. Better than archer with other useful skills in the disapline. Same time as an archer to do 9 vorpal, the only difference one is parrable, the other is not. But the assasin can be sneaky about, an archer is obvious.
2. Can knock anyone with a vorpal knock out. A very easy skill to achieve as rouge, sage, or if you want to spend 40 points.
3. Can posion anyone

I would think it would be an Ok skill if assasin did not get so many other cool skills. With this change, assasin is over powered as a disapline.
1. disguse - has very little use
2. Can escape from any bond Ok skill
3. Can posion people - a very powerful PC killer skill (note, if an assain wanted to vorpal posion someone in the past they could break weapons or take level 1 archer.
4. Vorpal - you get 3 skills in one

yes, there is warrior counter, but the other benifits the skill gets over comes this counter and makes this skill way to powerful.

Note: this 1 skill robs the following disaplines of there unique skills
Pike man - 5 vorpal attack
Brawler - +5 knowout
Archer - Only vorpal skill

If vorpal is kept, than I would say all resist posion counters the posion and damage done on it.
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Post by Todd »

As stated 'Items' are all currently being cataloged and looked at.

Additionally the Assassin no longer gets the Critical Strike bonus at lvl 2.


By allowing the 'vorpal' knockout they are basically getting a weaker sleep, as it can be parried and only if they have the knockout skill.

Poison was achieved previously as you already pointed out.

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Post by GM-Mike »

Funny, I would rather be any of those three disciplines than I would the assassin. The only part of what you are saying that I agree with is that vorpal poison is really nice (as Atreus can attest to). But we will see. The rule will not be changed. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I think it looks better than it really is.

Incidentally, explain to me how the new skill robs the brawler of their +5 knockout more than the previous assassin skill?
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Post by General Maximus »

Before the assasin change, the brawler only could be stopped by alot of armor or parry. Now resist sleep has been changed to counter knockout also making one more thing that can counter the brawlers 4th level ablity, weaking the disapline. And the change to sleep was counter act the new assasin ability. A vorpal knock out is far supirior to a high knowout ability. Now compared to the normal sleep attack, nothing has changed. (You got me on that point : )
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Post by Peace420 »

Well, small change, now "sleep" can be parried and it can be delivered with a weapon, which it couldn't before. For the record, I think it's overpowered too and I hope nooone thinks that I pushed for this change in any way.

I also think fundamental changes in the way skills work, like allowing to double up charge up skills, should be playtested and thoroughly gone over with a fine tooth comb before being introduced into gameplay. Part of the philosophy of charge up skills has always been that they can be a little nastier than life point and passive skills because they didn't stack with life pt or other charge skills.
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Post by dier_cire »

With this change I wonder if there was a change to a "non-existant" discipline"... Since before this, Man at arms' 4th level ability was made on par with its as they both had two abilities (one could resist knockout and the other ...).

As well, is Resist sleep isn't really worthy of a 4th level skill anymore as, as you mentioned, the assassin can be parried? It's a small benefit (as if you are hit in the back with a knockout and/or resist magic) comparably.

I do really hope this change wasn't added due to the grapevine rumor that people were confused between the Empath and the Assassin Sleep calls...
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Post by GM_Chris »

Well only thing I would say is any 1 of the 3 abilities isnt too powerful.

The issue is you have the potential to get 3 out of the deal which is neat.

The resist sleep change affects 1 discipline and really needed to be in there to make it the same as other 4th level disciplines.

Overall I am really on the fence I guess we will see how it goes.
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Post by dier_cire »

Just realized exactly how nerfed Resist Sleep for the Man at Arms is. Unless you are alone, it is replicated by Parry or Resist Magic (as in a group it's rare to be completely ambushed and no healer or potion around to bring you up). It used to be the only counter to the Assassin, now any warrior can counter it.

I still feel Assassin is overpowered, but also think Man at Arms just got screwed. I'd rather not be one anymore, currently. The benefit isn't worth the cost.
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Post by GM-Mike »

Come on now Eric, you have to come stronger than that. Push me a little bit, test me...

(and here I wasn't going to come back into this conversation)

First of all, a fourth level skill (such as resist magic) cannot chode out another fourth level skill that say, I don't know, gives you a resist to sleep and knockout. Sure they overlap a little, but they both have help against other calls. Prior to the change, the man at arms was the only one to be able to counter the assassin, true, but now they are more versatile in what they can counter, which, if I were a man at arms, would please me greatly.

And yes, I concede that, unlike before, now any warrior can resist the assassin...as long as they are attacked from the front. I know that if I were an assassin I would not even waste my time charging these big skills if I knew all I could get off was a frontal attack. After all, once an assassin is identified by your group, you will be sure to discharge them before being struck. The chance at a kill, or in this case a knockout, greatly increases from behind, meaning that warriors are vulnerable while men at arms turn and beat that assassin down to the ground until he stops squirming.

Just my take. At any rate, the rule is here until one side is proven right, which I guess means it will be here forever :P
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Post by Todd »

B.A. wrote:I also think fundamental changes in the way skills work, like allowing to double up charge up skills, should be playtested and thoroughly gone over with a fine tooth comb before being introduced into gameplay. Part of the philosophy of charge up skills has always been that they can be a little nastier than life point and passive skills because they didn't stack with life pt or other charge skills.
This theory has been playtested. Its called 'Archer' which has been around for years.

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Post by dier_cire »

Heh. It's fairly rare anymore where I'm being hit in the back, considering it's either in a cave or I have a group with me. And considering most monsters don't have parry, the current assassin rules are great for them.

Now, considering most of the time, the PCs outnumber the NPCs, PCs will typically get back hits more often than the NPCs. So, vorpal knockout is great on monsters (who typically have high armor anyway) it's hard to use on a PC, same as the old Sleep skill was. Resist Sleep was for the rare monster that could use the skill. Btw, I've maybe used the skill once, ever.

And while Resist Sleep became more versitile, it's benefit was only (until now) for when one wasn't wearing armor. Minor but it puts it even with the other Resist Sleep. However, since before, one ( + one) discipline was able to counter the assassin, and now every warrior can, changes one of the main reasons I chose Man at Arms. He was one of the two best defensive disicplines in the game. Now, he's second by a good lead (though oddly Witch Hunter went up a notch).

As for the skill stacking, archer doesn't really count as they only stack with each other, are ranged, and both are in one discipline, whereas Assassin can go with any skill, potion, item, or spell in game for the most part.

On an unrelated side note, why is it that Press isn't in any Savage discipline? Just noticed this.
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Post by General Maximus »

I have to agree with Eric, that reist sleep has been majorly weakened by the recent rule changes.
Resist sleep is effective against
Empath - magic sleep, which is countered by resist magic
Knock out - resited by armor, parry skill, and resist sleep
Vorpal Knock out - resit by parry and resist sleep

Since there are so many ways to protect one self, escipaly if you are a warrior, from sleep type calls, Resist sleep becomes not as powerful. If you are a non warrior, resist sleep is great. If you are a warrior, it is not, and one's points can be spent on other, more useful skills, like resit magic which can defend against many more threats.

Resist sleep has it place, but maybe not as a 4th level disapline since there are so many ways to counter sleep effects that do not require the resist sleep skill.
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