Spell packets, game stops, and the like


Archived topics from the different rule forums.

Moderator: Admin

GM

Posts: 4491

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:14 pm

Post Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:00 pm

Spell packets, game stops, and the like

Thought I would start a discussion about this here and see if we can get some suggestions. First, about the double standard between players retrieving spell packets and NPC's doing so. Double standards are going to happen. We have to represent multiple people with limited resources in an attempt to create a challenge for the player base. We need to do this and be as nondisruptive to game flow as possible (thus Todd's entire job in the battle in question was to throw packets back, limiting our representable fighting numbers by one). The problem with players doing the same thing is the amount of time that it takes--if spell packet collecting could be begun and finished by the time the arcane has finished the spell, NPC's would have no problem with this. We are constantly feeling the pressure to keep the game moving forward to give that epic feel, keep heart rates up, and on this occasion, to get to the ball as quickly as possible to be fair to those who put so much effort into it (the ball was awesome by the way). As a side note, in case anyone thought I was angry when I yelled to suck it up, I wasn't. I can handle the complaining and the questions, I in fact understand the gripe, I only ask that it is done at a different time. Calling a game stop to do so not the way. I hope people understand our position as well.

Anyway, the other possible issue is the game stops for spell casting...My feel is that if multiple spell casters are going to cast spells in quick succession, that all of these should happen at the same time and to trust us that we will eliminate the casualties accordingly. I am open to other ideas however, so this, I suppose is where the suggestions can begin.

As another aside, it was great to see that level of organization amongst the player base. You had those arcanes set and that was awesome--we simply could not get into your building. Kudos to all of you!

Mike
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 783

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:50 pm

Location: Where his horn is filled.

Post Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:31 pm

While I see that the casting the way it is now can seem a bit annoying, I didn't have any problem with it messing with the tension of the situation. I worry that loosing the tension of releasing the magic at the right time and getting the mage back inside before the closest soldier closes and kills you both.

I think this was a great event to be an arcane and I'd hate to take that from future event. By this I mean that you the rules expect an arcane to spend a bunch of time standing in a little circle to counter act something that may or may not happen. There is alot of work for an uncertain end. It would make it even worse if they don't get to see a result from their efforts. I don't think it would be the same to see a bunch NPCs staggering and falling to the ground (like they did such a good job of Saturday) instead of a GM just calling out "It looks like you've done some serious damage to the appraoching army. 3...2...1...Game On!"

just my 2 cents
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:25 am

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:33 am

I can understand why you don't want PC's to pick up packets during a short game stop, but help from both sides can make it folow smother. The NPC's can throw some packets back to the PC's during the short down time. PC's can help out and make some packets for the NPC's to use, etc... It is my understanding that packets are not considered an in game object, expect if you use a packet bow. Is this correct?
So feasibly a person could collect the packets out of game, because they are not an in game item. What do you think?
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 3094

Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:42 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:41 am

I like the way the game stops work for spells. Spells need some explaination. And I really liked how the NPCS all died off after rivers of stone. I think the arcanes did too.

Packets.
nothing more frustrating than running out of packets, which aren't a game item. Is it cheesy to get packets OOG? Yes. same reason as talking to a GM OOG is bad. People can hit you. BUt I can understand why you would want to. You NEED to have the packets to be effective.

I suspect a golden rule of packets might be the best plan. Exchange during game stops, sharing, and IN game runners for the packets. OOG runners for NPCs (since it really makes no differance if that noc is in or out of game.) PCs need to find a way in game, since it DOES matter if that PC is in game.

doesn't sound like there's an easy answer except maybe having buckets of Packets.
Travis Cole
User avatar

Regular Visitor
Regular Visitor

Posts: 35

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:54 pm

Location: Howell

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:25 am

1. I did not think it was ok for PCs to argue with the NPCs during a scene. (Ahem...cough...cough...Especially since some of those PCs have been in that position as NPCs and GMs themselves) NPCs and GMs have reasons for doing what they need to do.

2. NPCs have a right to be loud, but should not yell at people. That's one of the drawbacks of being in charge---keeping your head. I know it's hard.

3. Just as PCs have to physrep things, NPCs should be able to do this as well. Please make sure that you have packets next time, by either borrowing them or making some. I know they get stolen all the time, I've made over 100 of them myself this year, and only have about 25 left. But they aren't that expensive to make.

Karen explained why the gathering rule was left fluid very well, and I agree. Setting the rule in stone will cause problems too. Preparedness works best.

I am willing to make a trade....I have some very distinct fabric that I was going to make into packets for myself, but I will offer it to NPC camp for some kind of trade. Whatever you think is fair is fine with me.

Someone made the suggestion that PCs donate to the NPC camp, and at that point I got a little disgusted. I don't know what the finances are, but at 25 bucks a head, there should be a little cash for packets.

4. Game stops were necessary, and I didn't have a problem with them--when they were called for spells and effects. There were some extraneous ones called in confusion, and we need to be careful with that.

5. Everytime that a battle goes particularly well for one group over another people bring up changing the rules. That is not necessary! Sometimes one group is going to be better than the other, it's the nature of variety. Please don't change things just because we happened to kick ass for once. Remember...people did fall, we used the hell out of our healers, repaired lots of armor, and I'm sure the stone building took some damage. Many mystic components were used from our guild. Thank goodness we had them to spare. If not, we wouldn't have been able to do everything we did. I think this was just planning, and utilizing our resources well. Trust me, it won't always come together like this.


my...nickel...


BTW--- As we have provided large flashlights and or lanterns every event for general use, and they have subsequently been broken everytime, we will no longer be the sole provider of light. I suggest that the PCs and NPCs be prepared for future darkness.
User avatar

GM

Posts: 7553

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:43 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:52 am

Actually Packets are considered in-game items.

They MUST be considered in-game items or you run into the situation where you feel you should be allwoed to collect them.

Money to collect spell packets? Actually we have never been an event ahead financially yet. All the money we made last event will go into the renting of space next year. We are slowly moving toward the black, but only because every NPC continually funds the game out of their own pocket.


I personally spent about 586 bucks for this event to help provide food and props. I know other GM's spend alot of money as well. (That doesn't even count money spent out of the event)

I also know PC's spend alot of money as well, so all I am trying to say is at 25 bucks a person there is not as much money as you think.

So as I was saying above packets must be in-game. I am not saying people cannot throw them back and forth. I am not advocating any hard and fast rule. I will not have people running around during a game stop when they should be in 1 place collecting them (unless an NPC). I will not have OOG time spent to collecting them. I will not have people putting their hand above their head during a scene to collect them.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 189

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:53 pm

Location: Final Haven

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:56 am

I don't necessarily agree with the double-standard... to say NPCs can have OOG packets, but PCs have to have in-game is definitely giving an unfair advantage to NPCs. As Katie stated, at $25/head, and with knowledge of what it costs to run an event, there should be money for buying/making spell packets. I also have some very distictive (read: hideous polyester) fabric that I am willing to work out a trade with NPCs for. I might even be willing to sew them, depending on the trade. At CARPs we have dealt with the problem of packets by making them all OOG. No arguing, no hassle that way.

I think the buckets of packets are the way to go for NPCs. Just as the PC mages/archers are limited by what they can/do provide for themselves, so should NPC mages/archers. After the battle is over, everyone should be sure to return the NPC packets so that we don't run into this over and over.

I'll agree with all the PCs who have posted so far in that it was a fantastic event for a PC arcane. All of us agree that we felt the most effective that we have ever felt. The adreneline rush I got from that far exceeded the slight pause of the game stops. It was really awsome to see the actual effects of our spells. We were.... USEFUL! Yay for mages! Until this event, I had considered unlearning arcane, but I will definitely be keeping it now. As several have stated, this is the first time this efficiency has happened where all the mages were ready at once, and I wouldn't count on it happening very often. Please don't change the rules again just because we had one good event.

GM

Posts: 4491

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:14 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:57 am

Two things because there are some misconceptions. We as the NPC staff have no problem with having our butts handed to us. I for one was happy to see you guys be so successful. That has nothing to do with this. There were some people on both sides (PCs and NPCs--see Erika's post under feedback as just one example) who saw the many gamestops as being disruptive. That is the reason for this conversation.

Second on finances. We rent the lodge, the pavilion, picnic areas, the warming shelter, and the hunting lodge (which we barely use but believe eliminating biker rallies is good for the game). At 25 dollars a head we do in fact recoop our rental fees...most of the time. Now if you noticed, I have not even mentioned the props, makeup, costuming that comes out of pocket. Each NPC spends at least 100 dollars every event that they never see again simply because we want to keep your cost down. I go into detail not because Katie mentioned it but because I think that her belief is the prevailing belief. As our numbers grow, we use the excess money to rent more stuff or move to more expensive sites (which Rota Kiwan will be once insurance is factored in. So, to make a long story short--we do in fact create our own spell packets, do so during most events, but we cannot possible produce enough to fairly represent what we should have.
User avatar

GM

Posts: 7553

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:43 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:14 am

I need to clear up that the packets were not OOG of r us and IG for you. We simply had an OOG person picking up the IG packets. :)

As I mentioned under feedback we could create a 2k or an infinitely powerful golem creature whch is in game to pick the packets up for us.

I can understand that it seems unfair that we are allowed to go oog to pick up something IG. I also am not a huge fan of OOG people walking around during a battle. We have talked about GM observers being clad as ring wriaths and actually viewable in-game.

Next time, if we run out of packets we will use our GM God power to summon Golem. Maybe make it an arcane spell!!!!!!

Oh and Todd Phys repped a door too so lets not limit him to simply a packet gatherer. :) hehe
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 1004

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:25 am

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:41 am

I have a big issue with packets being consider an in game object. It means people can steal them and keep them from people. Aka, prevent a person being able to use there abilities.
I can understand the reasons for not allowing PC's to pick up packets during a game stop.

I would like to say the packets are not ingame, but you cannot pick them up during a game stop unless said other wise. In the past during seige battels, NPC's threw the packets back so PC's could keep using there skills. I don't see why this can keep happening. Both sides need to have be prepared and have many packets on hand.

In the past once an encounter was done, I was allowed to go back into a cave to pick up packets, etc.. with out fear of being attacked. To me, this says packets are out of game item's.

Here's my burn, I have made aover 400+ packets for this game, and now I'm down to 12 packets. WTF. Where have they gone?? Most of the white, yellow and red packets in game are mine. People borrow them and I never get them back. I use to have buckets of packets but now I don't.
User avatar

GM

Posts: 7553

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:43 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:47 am

Well I gues I dont have an issue with packets being OOG as long as people understand that does not mean you can put your hand over your head during a scene to pick them up. it does not mean that during a scene you can ask OOG to pick up packets. It goes not mean you can extend a game stop to pick up packets. It does not mean that you can run through a cave during a game stop to pick up packets.

It can mean that NPC's can throw them back to you. Personally I enjoyed using them since this helped the flow of the game. It can also mean that at the end of a cave plot you could go back in to pick up packets. (scene is over at that point)
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
User avatar

GM

Posts: 4122

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:49 pm

Location: Wouldn't you like to know

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:07 am

Someone made the suggestion that PCs donate to the NPC camp, and at that point I got a little disgusted. I don't know what the finances are, but at 25 bucks a head, there should be a little cash for packets.

As Katie stated, at $25/head, and with knowledge of what it costs to run an event, there should be money for buying/making spell packets.


$25 per person bearly covers rent. As Chris and Mike both stated, we as GMs and NPCs pay for props, costuming, makeup, etc out of our pockets. One way to help would be for those players who can afford it to donate items to the game. A few players have suggested a donation system to award those who can help (Not just financially but with their time as well). I think this is a must for next season.

I don't necessarily agree with the double-standard... to say NPCs can have OOG packets, but PCs have to have in-game is definitely giving an unfair advantage to NPCs.


NEWSFLASH!! NPCs ALWAYS have an unfair advantage. We know the plots, we know the PCs and most of their plans concerning said plots, and we have the ability to "respawn" and modify stats on the run. How we choose to press or release those advantages is the challenge in running a game. Those players who think we approach a scene or event with an "Us -vs- the PCs mentality" are not just completely wrong but should also realize how insulting it is. We approach every event, every plot, every scene as a way of entertaining players. We felt it would be more of a challenge and therfor more entertaining for the players if we had the ability to hurl more packets for that scene. If this isn't the case maybe we need to make Final Haven the "Sit-around-the Campfire-Sing-along-Jamboree-LARP" and characters can succeed at everything they do with no difficulties. I will supply the puppies and the rainbows out of my own pocket.

Each NPC spends at least 100 dollars every event that they never see again simply because we want to keep your cost down.


Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe that is our true mistake. Maybe we should just say screw it and charge what other LARPS charge and be done with it. Would we loose players if we charged $50 a person?
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 3094

Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:42 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:11 am

I would pay money to see wayne shoot puppies and rainbows out of his pocket. really.
Travis Cole
User avatar

Town Member
Town Member

Posts: 189

Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:53 pm

Location: Final Haven

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:26 am

My post was not meant to insult anyone, only to provide my point of view, which I am entitled. I don't intend to see this turn into a giant flaming war. I've said what I'm going to say, and I'm not the only PC who thinks the way I do.

New in Town
New in Town

Posts: 19

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:17 pm

Post Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:32 am

I think perhaps making multiple spells on a side weave into a "combo" may not be a bad idea if it means one game stop. I wasn't there and can't really say, so I'm just going off of what I hear. IG, it would make sense to me that enough mighty magics might cause problems to local reality and rituals are used to avoid that kind of mess.

As far as packets go, maybe a packet drive? They are pretty cheap and easy to make if you have both the supplies and the time, so people can probably donate one or two if they have them.
Next

Return to Rule Forum Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

Designed by ST Software for PTF.