Rouge


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Post Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:11 am

Rouge

At one time the game had many rouges in it, now there are only a hand full. The question is why. I suspect with the changes to the rouge path, the path became underpowered. What is peoples thoughts.

Now, to help bring the rouge up to power with the other paths, here is a suggestion to correct the problem.

Change back stab to critcal strike. Critcal strike can hit any legal part of the body. This removes the subjective back hits, run by's, and possible safety issue with trying to use backstab as a combat skill during battle.

The only changes would be the damage call and it would not be location specific. The charge times, picking a target, etc.. wil stay the same
basic - 3 damage
advanced - 6 damage
master - 9 damage

What are peoples thoughts
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Post Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:00 pm

I dont neccessarily agree that is underpowered, but Id like to hear what others have to say about it. I also firmly disagree that the solution to ..

'underpowered' = 'adding damage'

I can also think of quite a few rogues in game, there just not as high profile as they used to be. In fact I think that right now roll-playing is at an all time high. So good infact that it is at a point where it is becoming increasingly difficult to tell who's playing what archetype. (with the possible exception of the healers, there pretty easy to spot)
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:23 am

I hate the idea of adding more damage to a path, and taking away backstab really doesn't make a lot of sense, since it is a defining rogue ability. They aren't meant to be frontline fighters, talk to Ian about that one.

Is there anyone around who really wanted to make a rogue and decided they didn't want to because of the skills? Also, I think part if the problem lies in the fact that the last couple of big trap plots were 'solved' by non-rogues, because of the phys-reps. What could be done with that, is to make the penalty for failing a little harsher, since rogues can ignore traps (I think?).
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:31 am

Here's my problem with backstab. It is hard to deliever safely in a combat stituation becasue of the requirement of hitting in the back. This leads to people running at a person in combat trying to run by them as they try to hit them in the back. This can be very unsafe. Another problem is this is a melle skill that must pick a target and gets canceled if they get hit. Very are to use in combat.
Yes, you can agrue the skill is suppose to be used in sneaky stituations and not a combat skill, but how often does the oppurnity arise where a rouge can use this skill in that type of stituation? Espicaly against NPC's?
To me, if i'm going to be sneaky, I would use my knockout ability instead, which is alot more sneaky and can take most people down. 12 damage can not fall most people who are wearing anytype of armor. After they hit a person with backstab, a fight would start any ways. With knock out, if it works, the person is queitly removed.
The fix is not adding damage, it is making an existing skill more useful. Please note the suggestion removes the safety issues of only trying to hit a person in the back which is very subjective. How can an NPC know if you hit them in the back with a backstab when there are 4 other people beating on them.

Note: existing backstab damage is 3,6, 12. the new idea is 3,6,9. Also note if a person is hit when trying to deliver a critical strike and they get hit, they loose the charges skill, and also a warrior can parry any frontal critcal strikes. So to me, it is not over powered, and balanced. It makes 2 paths now that can easly take down a non warrior with damage, but a rouge can take down a non warrior with knockout with out any problems now. So it really does not change anything. Whats the difference of being knocked out and your throat slit and getting hit for 9 damage?
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:54 am

As it is rogues have a ton of skills that no one else posesses. They can disable and set traps, which is NOT nothing. They can pick locks. (and if passwall gets taken from assassin, they will be the only ones who can do so.) I don't think that it would be fair to get give them this.

BUT, I would like to see one of two things.

1. Backstab may be charged while moving.
Yes it breaks the rules. But this way the rogue could follow a guy and jack him. like he is supposed to.

2. Backstab does not need a target.
This breaks the spirit of the backstab but provides more functionality.

As for knockout taking out most people, I say no way. You need two rogues to take someone down with confidence. (and that's the way it should be.) A backstabber and a knockerrer outer. (unless you specialize in knockout).

In summary, Rogues have such a complex list of skills that giving them in bonuses in combat is unfair. Not everythng needs to be able to fight in straight up combat.
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:23 am

With knock out, you can take any non warrior down who is not wearing full plate. So a rouge can take down at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the people in haven with that skill. A 2 tag combo is required to take down any warrior.

By the way, with the proposed chages, the rouge would be more of a combat moster than if they had critcal strike. I would be total against the backstab changes becasue you would never know if a person has charged backstab and it is to much damage for that to happen. It makes them one of the best combat damage dealers in combat with these changes

1. Backstab may be charged while moving.
Yes it breaks the rules. But this way the rogue could follow a guy and jack him. like he is supposed to.

2. Backstab does not need a target.
This breaks the spirit of the backstab but provides more functionality.


Lets break down what a thief can do
Set traps, very hard to use on plots, useful against PC's and in planned mass combat. Maybe used 2 times an event
Disarm traps, useful if you ever run across a trap. If lucky, can use once an event. It's all up the NPC's.
Pick locks, great skill, but very little use in game. Not many puzzels or plots require that skill. Mostly used against PC's
Back stab - damage dealer in combat, very hard to use and get off succesfully.
Knockout- great skill, but most NPC's have armor higher than 9, so not much use against NPC's. Great against non-warrior PC's
Spot, everyone has that skill
Barter - neat for resources, but little else.

So a thief is great against PC's, but finds little stituations to use one's skills when dealing with NPC's

The question is, is a thief a combat class like the empath and warrior, or is a support class like the healer and sage? I say combat becasue of knockout and backstab.
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:14 am

"By the way, with the proposed chages, the rouge would be more of a combat moster than if they had critcal strike. I would be total against the backstab changes becasue you would never know if a person has charged backstab and it is to much damage for that to happen. It makes them one of the best combat damage dealers in combat with these changes "mor

You have to have knock out very high for it to be usefull.

Knockout 2: prevented with light armor.

Knockout 4: prevented with light armor and a hat.

KNockout 9: prvented with quality medium armor and a hat. (healer)

(that's the about the highest for non warrior.)

That's not including COmbat reflexes buffs(sage) TOughen skin(alchemy) or combat reflexes in general.

Well, that's why I suggested ONE of the TWO. (and the first violates an important rule. But is more inline with the spirit of a rogue.)

As far as not knowing if someone has a backstab charged...You don't really know that now. They don't have to hold it up and wave it around.

I also disagree that it would make them LESS powerful than being able to deal a critical strike, which does damage to any front. You'd still have to hit them in the back. (I actually think the current backstab is fine.)

And as far as pick locks is concerned, you are VERY mistaken about it's usefulness. Especially if if assassin gets talent reviewed. It will be the only tool. Simple locks are plentiful and cheap. (and quick to make.)
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:26 pm

Knowing if a person has a backstab charge is 50/50. If I see a person on the field and they just stand there staring at me for some time and than comes towards me, I will know they have charged some type of skill and strike them. With charging while moving the person can dancing around me and than backstab once they get an oppurnity. Charging while moving and with out a target is the most powerful ability any charge skill could have. Not having a target is not that big of deal and i could go either way, but charging while moving is just wrong.

I will galdely play test the problem with this idea and show how broken it is. When this game first started, I played a rouge with a 5 secs backstab charge time and was able to desimate. If I could charge while moving, well, it's just wrong.

Thats cool that people are finding pick locks usefull on plots and such. But I rarely see such requirement unless they are trying to steal from a PC.
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:34 pm

By the way: Knock out is
Basic - 3 for 10 sec
Advanced - 6 for 20 sec
Master - 9 for 30 sec

I do not see many non warriors wearing full plate in game, so the 9 knock out would be very useful against them. That means they must be wearing 10 armor points or more to be fully protected. That is a complete suit of full plate armor with a helmet. With bonus the armor requirement will drop, but I do not see people wearing armor in game unless they are a warrior. And if people are counting small patchs of metal of hide as armor, than they are not following the rules.

Arm's must cover both arms, upper and lower to get full armor points
Legs must cover both legs, upper and lower to get full armor points
chest must cover the chest and back to get full armor points.

There are only a few non warriors who walk around with that much armor in game.

So even if a person has all the buffs the game has to offer, if they are not wearing armor, they can be knocked out with a 9 KO.
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:58 pm

I agree it would be powerful. But I have to believe it would be less powerful than damage dealing to any side.

So drop charging while moving. (I only included it because even Chris griped about how hard it was to use it with out moving.)

Knockout 2: prevented with light armor.(Valkyn'vie)

Knockout 4: prevented with light armor and a hat. (Valkin'vi + sap)

KNockout 9: prvented with quality medium armor and a hat. (healer) (master rogue)

(that's why i covered those, because they cover all bases.)

"Arm's must cover both arms, upper and lower to get full armor points
Legs must cover both legs, upper and lower to get full armor points
chest must cover the chest and back to get full armor points. "

Keep in mind those can be light armor. Lots of people wwearing leather jackets and pants etc.

let's just take quality light armor and a hat. That's 7 points. Now they get toughen skin. for 2 life points. That gives them + 4 for a total of 11.

Now the MASTER rogue must be a valkin'vi, have a sap, or or pick one a few dispiplines to be able to take you down. ANd that's just light armor.
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:09 pm

Seems to me that Backstab is pretty easy to use in the open field. NPCs are typically outnumbered in battle, and so it’s easy for a rouge Rogue to circle around behind the NPCs while they are distracted by other PCs and hit ‘em in the back. I’ve seen a number of rouge Rogues use their backstab frequently and effectively during battles.
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:33 pm

Aaron your the only Rogue I ahve delt with who does the running backstab attack :)
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:42 pm

If you include quality armor, than yes, KO is not as useful, but quality is going to be rarity instead the norm. People will not be able to upkeep there quality armor in the events coming because of the lack of resources coming into game.

If anything, I would like to see KO be increased by 1 point per level. It would make the rouge much more scary.

A character who takes no warrior skills, can be KO easly by a Rouge in the curernt system. A character who takes a couple warrior skills and gets the sage buff, and wears the right armor can be protected froma standard rouge. But if a person builds a KO rouge, they can drop most anybody in game. That is scray

Valkin V - + 2 KO
Master Rouge - +9 KO
Sap - +2 KO
Brawler - 5 KO
or Interagtor - 2 KO

So a KO rouge could have a KO of 15-18
That is most people in game expect for the warriors in quality full plate. Not many of them.

Now, how is Critcal hit so powerful when it is compared to the Empath Boom attacks

Boom - It is ranged and can only be blocked by a shield. 5-30 damage every 10-60 secs

Critcal strike - Weapons can block the attack, if attacker touched before delievering charge skill - skill is lost, and attack can be paired. 3-9 damage evey 5-15 secs.

Not to bad
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:19 pm

I hate the diving from the front attacks it should be a sneak attack as in a "surprise" atack.

Right now I think FH is really close to perfection. I think we feel there are still a couple things to look at.

Forexample, I want to review armor restrictions. I want to look at the pikeman's ability because it is REALLY easy to interrupt them..maybe too easy. I want to relook at barb crush. I would like to look at shield size. Now as for backstab I could see looking at it, but critical stike I am against.

I could see making backstabs quicker. The question that needs to be asked is if you are going to take out a lone apponent by sneak attack, and they do not see you, then do you walk up and attempt a knock out, or do you lead with a backstab assuming time is not an issue. If the answer is always knockout then well I would say backstab is underpowered.

The question to be asked is should a rogue be able to take out a warrior 1 on 1 assuming the rogue has surprise? Should the rogue be requiered to use traps to take out a single warrior? Should the rogue be requiered to bring a friend?

I could see time being decreased. Lets say 2 rogues square off on a warrior and we reduced the counts to say 2,4, and 6 seconds. Assuming people properly cound one 1000, two 1000 then each rogue could take turns doing 3 damage to the back of the warrior. Might be interesting :)
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Post Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:34 pm

"Arm's must cover both arms, upper and lower to get full armor points
Legs must cover both legs, upper and lower to get full armor points
chest must cover the chest and back to get full armor points. "


Page 56:

Armor Locations
There are three locations on the body that can provide armor points, the arms, the legs, and the Torso. Both arms together constitute only one location. The same holds true for the legs. In order to receive armor points for the torso area at least 50% or more of the front and back of the torso must be covered by armor. To receive armor points for the legs or arms, they must be covered by a piece of armor that crosses a joint such as the shoulder, elbow, or knee.
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