What If's

[GM_Chris]

NO NO if you block a 30 crush with your shield it explodes

[Peace420]

unless the person has no armour left

If it drops the vorpal poison part and makes it 1 then why would armor matter at all?

I was not aware that damage types were removed with Hold Ground.

Neither was I, if that is the case then Hold Ground is way overpowered for a basic path skill. The drop to zero thing is not that bad at all since most of the time you are going to fight to 0 anyway and 1 potion puts you in positives again very quickly and you already have determination. You already get immunities for hold ground so changing crush, vorpal, disease and poison to just 1 is basically giving it 4 more resists. WAY TOO MUCH!! it should only drop the # in a damage call to 1.

Equipment follows it's own rules, and unless a player skill states it applies to that equipment it only applies to the player/character, and his/her equipment are not considered a symbiotic single being.

Not quite, shields follow their own rules because any other type of equipment is considered a part of you. You can't hold out your pouch or your sword like a shield and block a magic call and you can't blow up a pouch or sword with damage.

With the way the shield rules are all wonky the magic call should never be combined with the crush or vorpal calls, it makes things way too confusing as it has the magic call in it so the shield would block it but it has the crush call so it wouldn't. And an archer shooting magic vorpal poison(sorry to add another wonky thing to the post) shouldn't happen either because there is too much confusion, the witch hunter resists it because it's magic but it did cost a life so does the poison work?

Crush deals no damage to the shield.

Wrong, if the # exceeds what it would take to blow up your shield your shield is blown up. The crush part means that instead of as with 30 magic the shiled just blows up you also take the 30 damage.

Vorpal crush would also bypass the shield

The day that vorpal crush is allowed to happen in this game is my last day playing. That is the ultimate jump the shark.

Than the only time a damage effect surges through a shield is if it a crush effect or the person has been feared

Fear doesn't say anything about making shields useless only that you can't use charge or activated skills, so why would a damage effect surge through a shield if you are feared? If it does thats way too wonky and should be changed to be like it reads in the book.

My main problem with this is why do we even need this? To limit it so people can't use resists? Is the ability to use a shield and resist magic an actual break?

I don't think so, it's what witch hunters do, they resist magic stuff, then we wouldn't need a special confusing shield rule.

And parrying a 30 crush results in the shield still going away seems like some really backwards logic. You block with your weapon (the common concept of parry) and your shield that wasn't hit, explodes?

This is getting scary , but I'm agreeing with Ried throughout this whole thread. Seems like alot of extra special situations that don't need to be there.

[cole45]

Ahh, crush does damage the shield. I did not know that, but it makes sense. A hit hard enough to kill you through your armor and shield, blows up the shield.

If we use wayne's " When a character is hit by a poison call that deals atleast 1 damage to their life points, i.e. they have no armor points or they are hit by a "x vorpal poison" call, the character is considered to be poisoned. A character may also be poisoned by drinking a poison potion. When poisoned the character can no longer activate any charged skills or skills that use a life point. In addition if the character is using such a skill it is dropped."

For poison, then If the Witch Hunter resists magic poison, they would NOT be poisoned. The life Point would be a cost of the Resist, not damage inflincted by the attack.

Fear states you can neither attack nor defend attacks on you. I think this is where the implied crush exists. "any strike on his or her person, weapons, or carried equipment counts as a hit. "

[GM_Chris]

If it drops the vorpal poison part and makes it 1 then why would armor matter at all?

I see multi calls as multi calls so a damaging efect with a posion tag still keeps its posion tag.

Forexample 3 posion becomes 1 posion not just 1

Also, I have a new thought on what is considered normal damage: Is crush and vorpal really "normal"

hold ground

Well honestly it may need tweeked since we adjusted alot of things with it at one time. It use to not block ranged attacks and drop to neg 10. You are right that something needs put back

Fear doesn't say anything about making shields useless only that you can't use charge or activated skills, so why would a damage effect surge through a shield if you are feared? If it does thats way too wonky and should be changed to be like it reads in the book.

We changed fear so you can RP it like you want to make that change we added that you cannot defend yourself. This means if you are feared and something hits your shield it surges. Basically all things surge to you while feared.

Parry

You are getting WAY sucked up in the word parry. Parry can mean a dodge, when you parry a crush attack you are actually dodging. An example of a parring a crush attack with a shield watch LOTR 3rd movie, Rohan woman vrs Ring wraith. He takes be smashy thing and hits her shield. Shield explodes, she isnt killed but still took 1 LP of damage.

[Nelkie]

Chirs, you example with LOTR, one can argue the she did not parry the blow but just blocked it with her shield and it got destroyed. or it canbe argued the way you said. Either works.

Can someone tell me whats wrong with being able to use a resist effect if an effect hits a shield? Whats makes this to powerful and ungame balancing. I understand what you are looking for, but it adds alot of confusion on what counts as hit and what doesn't. If you treat the shield as part of ones body and equipment that can be destroyed if it takes more damage than it's value is simple and easy to understand.

If you want another thing against shields, have them be able to be disarmed

Benifits of a shield,
Have a large blocking surface
Stops vorpal
The only item that can block no vorpal ranged damage attacks

Negatives
A great big target for spells, and crush
Can be destroyed by damage
Big bulky item to carry around

Sword -
Can block vorpal attacks
Can not block damaging packet attacks
Can not block non damaging attackes (Mellee or Packet)

[Peace420]

The poison hold ground thing the wording just needs to be clarified then, because it does make it seem like it changes it to 1.

For the fear thing shield needs to be added in then because it certainly functions different than your equipment.

So with all these things a person holding ground loses their shield if they are hit with enough damage to blow up their shield and if that damage is crush then they take 1? They also drop immediately to zero if they are poisoned.

[Nelkie]

If hold ground works as you just suggested

"I see multi calls as multi calls so a damaging efect with a posion tag still keeps its posion tag.

For example 3 posion becomes 1 posion not just 1 "

This is how I read it, any damaging effect hitting a hold ground person would be droped down to 1, but all affects still apply. So disease, posion, vorpal, crush would effect the person.

Than vorpal posion would effect the hold grounded person and they would drop down to zero life.

[GM_Chris]

From seeing Wayne and I keep trying to counter all teh stuff you are saying with little additons I can get in favor of allowing resists to save your shield.

Only issue I have is it truely makes the witch hunter the best shield shield guy in game

[Nelkie]

The witch hunter becomes great against an empath, but a cump against everyone else. I thought the witch hunter was suppose to be able to wipe the floor with an empath. But you also have relize the other ablities of a witch hunter are some what under powered, so the resist makes up for it. I say it is prety balanced. So you don't attack a witch hunter with magic damage, they still can be easly beat down by normal damage and effects.

I still think the best shield in game is the man at arms with the witch hunter coming in second

Man at arms
immune to all fears
Immune to all sleeps
Can block all but the most powerful boom
(An assian, barbarbin, beast hunter, empath killer)

Witch hunter
Immune to all magic damage
Immune to mepath magic fear and sleep
Immune to magic root.

(druid, empath killer)

It is a close call, but both are very useful.

[Nelkie]

If the resist magic seems to powerful, have it cost 2 life to bring it in line.

[dier_cire]

Until they are hit with "Sleep" or "Fear".

Now if we go with the ability to use resists while holding ground (which I have no issue with) should this same idea carry over to defensive matrix? If so, do we even need the blanket rule in the rulebook about only one life point skill at a time?

To me, I see no issue with resist magic as it is.

[Amagus]

Chris’s LOTR Example is perfect. She parries the Ringwraith’s crush attack multiple times, dodging it’s first several strikes. Then, unable to parry again, she takes the hit – her shield shatters and the damage passes on to her. At zero life, she falls. With determination she is yet conscious, and may crawl a little, but cannot fight.

[dier_cire]

Actually, Chris was saying that she parried the attack and shield still exploded. I prefer the above example. The final unparried attack hits the shield, blows away any combat reflexes she may have had, and puts her at zero or so.

[GM_Chris]

Yeah but I like how he describes it better.

I think you are right in that the witch hunter is fine.

As for using resists while holding ground...that may be all it needs to be fixed

[Onimaster]

Eh, she was just on the ground not quite dead waiting for her Guthrie knight friend to distract him while she charged a magic backstab.