The Dwarven Racial Boon

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:51 am

In order;
1) I think we can be a little more discerning about what equals armor, and what should just be costume.
2) You must have missed the part where I said No Fractions
3) Cypher away, and let me know what you come up with. We need an option that allows for Base advances, but doesnt require Fractions.
4) Abilities should be balanced more twords the Path, than the Guild to begin with.

Any body else? Wayne? Tonya?

Azara Blackhawk · Post by **Azara Blackhawk** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:29 am

Well Todd, you wanted someone else's opinion.

After reading the disucssion, I am going to have to agree with Aaron on this one. After looking at the numbers he crunched, you are giving people wearing light and medium armor a heck of a bounus vs people who actually strap on and wear heavy armor.

In truth, the proposed system by Todd makes wearing heavy armor useless for there is more of an advantage to wearing the light or medium, thus giving swashbucklers an advantage. For not only are they quick, but farily durable.

I know some people hate fractions and all, but Aaron's system to me is better and it goes back to giving people in heaver armor better at being the "tank" of the group.

Ok, that is my two cents which is rare for rules type of discussion.

-Julie

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:03 am

To be honest, how many people care if there are fractions? As long as it's written out in a table so people don't have to actually do the math, no one gives a rip. No one complains about allegience and that has just as many fractions as armor. It's just written out as a table.

There's only like 81 combinations of armor, could probably chart most of it (9x9 grid).

One thing I'm also not too keen on, is I wear a god awful plate helmet. It's uncomfortable and cold in winter. What's the benefit of this over Aaron's much warmer studded hat?

Another idea, is light and medium arms and legs only give +1 amor if both are worn... avoids fractions and I believe is the same as Aaron's +.5

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:08 am

No Fractions, if we can't come up with a # based system that is fair across the board then I suggest we keep the % system cause you can't really argue that someone gets a better deal when everyone gets the same % increase.

Swashbuckler gets can use a shield without raising armor category already and it's coupled with being able to dual wield so how is that overpowering for others to get it too? It should be higher than 3rd level guild skill. Shields are more a warrior thing than swashbuckler IMO though so I don't see a problem with them getting the shield bennie at advanced or master.

Allegiance doesn't really have fractions although you could make fractions out of the #'s on the table.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:28 am

Peace420 wrote:Swashbuckler gets can use a shield without raising armor category already and it's coupled with being able to dual wield so how is that overpowering for others to get it too?

I don't think he should get the shield upgrade in the first place, and giving it to everyone will just lead to stupid combat, and more chance of injury. (Race to zero hitpoints is lame)

When fighting Aaron when he used the spear (same concept defensively as a longsword and buckler), I had climb over it to hit him, and even then I couldn't see where I was swinging very well. I would rather not encourage people suing wrapping as it leads to more head hits than I'd like to see.

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:37 pm

Julie, I wasnt suggesting that you had to pick between the two, I was asking for other opinions on how to fix the problem. Mine was flawed because of the difference in Light to heavy, Aarons was flawed because it used fractions. How do we fix it?

Idea; If we change the Dwarven Boon, And Warrior Skills from +1 per location, to +1 per catagory (+1Light,+2Medium,+3Heavy) it works out quite a bit more evenly. A non-warrior swashbuckler max's out at 10, and a Dwarven/Warrior/Swashbuckler max's out at, I beleive, 13. Ka would be sitting pretty at 21. And even if he switched to dwarf he'd only hit 24.

This system definately encourages heavier armor. Well...?
_________________________________________

"Ex-cop goes to work at his old ladies Head-Shop? Nah, too Sit-Com!

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:34 pm

Todd,
I like your idea, though it leads us to the problem of 6 point arm guards (1 base, +1 from dwarf, +1 from knight, +2 from warrior, +1 from quality). Granted at this level of armor, I could care if you cheese it.

So with this system max would be (base amor value):
Light (<5) = 11pts (base 4 + 1 dwarf + 1 knight + 2 warrior + 3 quality)
Medium (5-7) = 18pts (base 7 + 2 dwarf + 2 knight + 4 warrior + 3 quality)
Heavy (>7) = 25pts (base 10 + 3 dwarf + 3 knight + 6 warrior + 3 quality)

I like this system. It makes quality a little better for light than heavy but it's only 2 points. Not that big a deal.

Basically we have:

1-4 points of base armor is light
5-7 is medium
8-10 is heavy

quality adds +1 per location
dwarf, knight, and both levels of warrior give +1 for light, +2 for medium, and +3 for heavy. (needs a little word smithing)

Edit: quality light will need to be removed as it provides no bonus (armor values are equal). It does change what phys rep you could wear (not necessary).

Nelkie · Post by **Nelkie** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:59 pm

I agree with Todd's/Eric's idea for armor. It works and it is simple and no fractions.

Now I need to create an armor sheet that goes with the system. Hmmmm

Post by **WayneO42** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:44 pm

I like the direction that the armour bonus discussion is going but I still dont like giving the dwarf an armour bonus as his racial boon. It is the only racial boon that is dependent on an in-game item (Armour). A dwarf with no armour gets the shaft. All the other races can use their boon no matter what. I would like to see the dwarven boon be a skill that a dwarf could use in a more diverse set of situations. I was thinking about Resist Poison (Spend a 2 LP to resist the effects of a poison). It is the only resist we do not have in game and it fits along with the "Hardy" dwarf concept.

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:03 pm

GAH!!! I finally get Nelkie and Reid to agree with me, and you gotta go and mess it up with logic.
*shaking fist* "Damn you Wayne!"

I really like the way Armor was working here, but I understand about the poison thing too. Grr...
(if we do end up using it, the only difference is that Knight is a flat 2, not progressive. Otherwise it looks right.)

Well people...? More Ideas?

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:43 pm

Knight flat 2? Huh? Thought Knight would be +1 per cat like all the others...

Don't see a problem too much with the dwarf being dependant on armor. It isn't hard to get 1 point of armor and his boon is active.

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:41 pm

The Knight was a flat +2 to keep it in line with the +2 Harden Skin that the Barbarian, and Warlord receive.
And I agree about the Armor Boon (scary int'it), but I also find the poison thing apealing. Imunity from toxins due to over exposure. i.e. excessive drinking of potent beverages

Nelkie · Post by **Nelkie** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:06 am

It is my feeling that the Knights extra armor should act just like the warriors utilze armor. You are not comparing apples to to apples when you look at harden skin and extra armor

Harden skin - no need to wear armor, can be healed by a healer (only 4 miutes to get it fixed), cost no resources to repair, and still protects against posion & disease. +2 armor no matter what

Extra Armor - need to wear armor, a smith needs to repair it (5-15 minutes), requires resources to repair back to ful. 1-3 armor granted.

Compared together, Harden skin is more of a useful skill. The possible +1 armor helps off set the inbalance, but not by much.

Question on helemets? Right now there is no difference between light, med, heavy helmets. I could be a warrior in full plate and have a leather helemt vrs a person in full plate and have a metal helemt on, and I would have the same number of armor points. here's an idea.

The dwarf will not give any bonus to armor, but have the resist posion ability. This drops the armor max down to 22. Not bad.
Now to make it some what worth while to have metal helmets bump the armor points up on helemts.

Helmets Version 1
Light 1 - Full suit 4
Med 2 - Full suit 8
Heavy 3 - Full suit 12
Max armor possible 24

Helmets Version 2
Light 1 - Full suit 4
Med 1 - Full suit 7
Heavy 2 - Full suit 11
Max armor possible 23

What do you think?

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:20 am

Knight stays at +2 flat

I was thinking about Helmets, and the problem is having a bonus to headwear, even +2. +3? No way. If we cant think of a better way to do it then I could possibly get behind,
Light = protection from stun strike only
Med = protection +1
Hev = protection +2
I dont really like it but...

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:38 am

The knight +2 is far less powerful than the barb harden skin. He has to wear armor, whereas the barb doesn't. When he loses it, he has to have it repaired (ie spend resouces) to get it back. The barb merely has to be healed. Also, this leads right to someone wearing a 3pt helmet (which is just plain stupid).

The +1 per category gives him the option of +3, but if he isn't wearing enough armor then he gets less. The flat 2 also makes light and medium more powerful in a knight's hands than heavy (percent wise it's a larger bonus). Kinda ass backwards if you ask me.

As far the helmet idea, Todd. That exactly what I was thinking (the +0, +1, +2). Granted I personally don't like it either. There just really isn't a good option for helmets.