Bow use for everyone

[GM-Mike]

Just remember this is a discussion and that nothing is final until we playtest and post as a rule change. At this point, to my knowledge, no bow rule has been officially changed,
Mike

[Peace420]

The way the rules ar writen up senerio 1 is correct. I do not see any problem with that because the empath can walk around with a 15 magic all ready.

The rules may not say specifically that you have to have a target first but Colin asked a long time ago and you do need to have a target which is only common sense, for true shot how do you line up a shot accurately if you don't have a target.

[WayneO42]

The only real change is the fact that anyone can use a bow for 1 damage (not vorpal) and the "Re-load" times went away. I dont think that is that big of a change. The "Reload" times seem unfair to me. If a player wants to practice his real world skill at reloading a bow/crossbow, why should we stop it? We let people practice real world sword skill and dont penalize them.

Speaking of playtesting, has there been any thought on setting up a playtesting date?

[GM-Mike]

The only reason I posted my caution is that I remember we had a huge dicussion about bows in the past and we decided not everyone could use one. Unfortunately, I have no memory of what was said or why so I was thinking maybe there was a counterview out there that I was hoping to hear from.

As for playtesting, yes, there has been lots of thought about setting up a playtesting date (but somebody should probably organize that who is in the state and has access to lots of people who would be willing to run around a while beating people with sticks...lets see, who would that be...Nelkie perhaps? )

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

So if gameplay rules in favor of the new rules (everyone can use bows, mods to archer class, no count time, xbow draw weight increase), which of my aforementioned scenarios would apply -- there are multiple opinions on the matter, and I'd just like a ruling. Actually, the scenarios listed above apply even if no rule is changed at all. Can I get a GM ruling?

Bob-Z

[Trevor Owen]

As Ovak said, regardless of what we GMs say here, until you see it in an official rules update, the fact that we may agree to something in theory in a posting doesn't count for beans. These threads get long, and we have lost bits and pieces in the shuffle before.

Personally, i think it goes to no cheese. The idea behind true shot is you take the time to line up and aim. With no target, you can't do that, however you could still enchant a bolt or arrow. After you spot the target if you want to hunker down for another count, that is no problem. I think it just goes to a question of cheese.

-Trevor

[dier_cire]

Silly Bob, rulings here are far between generally. We talk a lot but it takes time (read: monthes) for anything to change. Sometimes, if it's an exploit it can be fixed by bringing into game (see: fear), but the tweaks and such take longer. It's just one of those things and the way its always been. You'll get used to it.

</sarcasm>

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

hahaha, thanx guys . BUT!!!! Even if there are no official RULE changes, I just want clarification on how the question I posed plays out with the current rule set. Some seem to think that secnario 1 is the way its drawn up right now, others not. Personally I agree, and think scenario 2 is the better option, but as far as I can see, nothing with regard to this question is explicitly explained in the rules right now. So forget if any changes take place, true shot and magic arrow are still skillz... how do the modifiers and multipliers work?

Even if there are absolutely no changes made to the rules, I think loose ends like that should be tied up.

Please don't hate me and give me scenario 4.

--Bob

[WayneO42]

As a game designer, you cannot close all loop holes nor tie up all loose ends. To cover the bases we have come up with the no cheesy test. This test isn't just applicable to the newbies. It applies to everyone, even GMs and NPCs. Before you do something think:

1) Is what I am doing against the spirit of the rule/Game?
2) If I saw my action in a movie, would I think it was lame?
3) Am I exploiting the rules?

If the answer is yes....STOP...Don't Do it.

Lets put your scenerios through the test:

Scenario 1: 4th level archer can walk around with a 12 magic vorpal bolt ready (as a result of waiting 30 seconds for magic, and 10 for true-shot, giving 12 from (2base+2true-shot) * 3magic )

1) Is what I am doing against the spirit of the rule?
The skill is called "True Shot". It has a charge time that infers aiming at a target. Scenerio 1 fails at question 1

Scenario 2: 4th level archer can walk around with a 6 magic vorpal bolt ready (as a result of waiting for 30 seconds for magic (2base *3magic), but CANNOT use true-shot until a target has been acquired and a 10 second count has been initiated to represent the "steady" time.) In this situation the archer can opt to shoot for 6 magic vorpal right away, or wait up to 10 seconds to deal 12 magic vorpal.

1) Is what I am doing against the spirit of the rule?
I think it passes this test. You use magic arrow to embue the arrow with magics and then, after you have a target, you aim and fire acuretly for more damage. PASS

2) If I saw my action in a movie, would I think it was lame?
Not really. Its sort of a mystical mage-y Gung-Fu Chi Thing

3) Am I exploiting the rules?
You are pushing it with the pre-charge thing but it is similiar enough to the empath channel ability to pass the test. However, the math doesn't work. True shoot adds to the damage and Magic arrow multiplies damage. It makes more sense to apply the modifiers in the order they are charged. Thus, (Base 2 * Magic Arrow 3)+2 True Shot = 8. Ohh so close but it Fails this part of the test

Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2, but the damage is maxed out at 8 (because you've charged 30 seconds for a multiplier of 3magic, giving 6, and then the true-shot adds 2 more on top of that for a total of 8

1) Is what I am doing against the spirit of the rule?
I think it passes this test. You use magic arrow to embue the arrow with magics and then, after you have a target, you aim and fire acuretly for more damage. PASS

2) If I saw my action in a movie, would I think it was lame?
Not really. Its sort of a mystical mage-y Gung-Fu Chi Thing

3) Am I exploiting the rules?
You are pushing it with the pre-charge thing but it is similiar enough to the empath channel ability to pass the test. True shoot adds to the damage and Magic arrow multiplies damage. It makes sense to apply the modifiers in the order they are charged. Thus, (Base 2 * Magic Arrow 3)+2 True Shot = 8. Ding Ding Ding....I think we have a winner.

[Curufin]

Thanks Wayne for the clarification. Though I think that scenario 4 might be more appropriate for Robert and myself.

[WayneO42]

I think you already have to be at the Scenerio #4 Point just to join a LARP

Wait....Where does that put you if you write one?

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

That puts you at scenario 5. I don't know its description, but it carrys with it the title "Wielder of the retards".

Bob

[WayneO42]

BTW: My no cheese post above applies more when there is no one around to give an official ruling. It is also the process we as GMs tend to use when coming up with and resolving rules issues. I think it is a good mind set to get in as a PC as well. It was not meant as any sort of discussion stopper or slight against those posting questions. When we have the time, as we do now, the game can only benifit by dragging the rules problems out in the light of day and spanking them around until we can come up with a solution that makes sense and is easy to follow from the get go. It is hard to clarify rules as a GM because we know what we mean when we write them

[Nelkie]

Thanks Wayne and everyone for there input.

I understand the no cheese rule, but I disagree with it partialy. We should as a team make the rules as clear as possible. (FH for dummys) This will help with the roleplaying experience beacause peole would not waste time asking how this skill is suppose to work. We should be able to go into the book to get most of the rule questions answered.

Eric and I was given the assignment to find out where the rules are broken and what needs to be better clarefied.

We are going on what the rules say, not what we think you meant by the rule. If we go on what the rule might mean than it can be intrupeted many different ways and confusion rains. Eric and I are working a comperhesive list of rules clarifications and breaks. For the most part when all the changes are completed there should be few questions on what the rules truely mean.

For true shot and magic arrow, just put into the description that a target must be choosen at the time of charging. See backstab and nerve pinch.

Lets try not to implement the no cheese rule when we are talking about rules dealing with skills. It can get dangerous.

[Brikal Farside]

Agreed:

Robert has scenario 4. And who said it takes a while to come to a ruling?

...I have an Idea. In exchange for resources, could I go find a craftsman and have him make me Xbow bolts that do 3 normal damage, instead of 1 vorpal?

Arrows were not only for defeating armor. There were even different arrowheads for defeating different types of armor. Why couldn't I have some engineered to do normal, but higher damage?

spence