the inballance of rogues

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:06 pm

i laughed so hard I snorted....

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:56 pm

Malachi wrote:It's so they can destroy Empaths just as well as Warriors destroy Rogues.

i know, i am well aware of the suposed wheel of destruction between those three classes.

Wyrmwrath wrote:i laughed so hard I snorted....

i dont know what this was refering too, but it was very constructive none the less

however, the max vorpal critical strike is now is 18 vorpal (high level with items)
the base easy to get before level 20 is 12 vorpal

with that jank armor gone parry is the sole skill to avoid that, and it only works on the front, if anyone is tapped on the back they are dead regardless of what class they are. and no, im not going to do this 1v1 in combat (what assassin would really?) im going to tap your foot whilst your sleeping, tap you on the back while were chatting, etc.

before it would have been 14 vorpal (high level with items) and base easy to before 20 was 9 vorpal. the latter is tricky to use because some warriors could have more life, the high level is close to no fail. depends on if its a high level warrior (1 life per 20 levels) and what perks they took (another possible 2 life)

as it stand now its just to high, you need to be a very high level, a beast race, and take specific perks to deal with even a below level 20 rogue assassin?

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm

Malachi wrote:
It's so they can destroy Empaths just as well as Warriors destroy Rogues.

Wyrmwrath wrote:
i laughed so hard I snorted....

i dont know what this was refering too, but it was very constructive none the less

it was directed tword the included post...just made me laugh and was in no way meant to be constructive, so I guess it hit the target!

with that jank armor gone parry is the sole skill to avoid that, and it only works on the front,

if anyone is tapped on the back they are dead regardless of what class they are.

Actualy there are PCs that can take it, no I wont say who.

and no, im not going to do this 1v1 in combat (what assassin would really?) im going to tap your foot whilst your sleeping, tap you on the back while were chatting, etc.

Which is why its balanced, BECAUSE you have to do it that way...its potent. A warrior just walks up and tools you into the ground, no stealth needed.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:04 pm

I don't think I really need to mention that as the current game stands, the ability to deal massive damage or the lack thereof doesn't make or break a fighter in a battle. It's what you do with what you've got, and anything that reduces damage is big.

Though I did kinda wonder where the need to up the damage of Rogues came from. 3-6-9 was perfectly fine what I played my rogue and 4-8-12 seemed excessive.

Especially when the removed the requirement to have a set target in sight from beginning to end of using the Critical Strike skill. The ability to walk around with a full burst-damage attack charged so that you are constantly ready to flick your weapon out to do that damage is a bit much and doesn't really fit the feel of the skill.

Especially when the Sage Study Thy Foe does 10 damage after a full minute of keeping a target in sight, but a Rogue has spent that same last minute jumping out from being in hiding to do up to 4 swings of "8" at the same level of skill.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:17 pm

so i just went through the whole rulebook and little boonus books, and have come up with what i belive to be max life:

2 - beast race (i think, it said +1, but phys rep gave it +1 if i recall)
3 - warrior
2 - common
2 - vigor from witch hunter/pikeman
1 - wealth level
2 - perks
1 - level 20
1 - level 40
1 - level 80
1 - level 160
1 - level 320
1 - sage buff (does not stack with strength of body)
1 - realistic armor (maybe not, this could be the phys rep i was refering too)
4 - strength of body (per scene makes this useless against an assassin)

maybe there are magic items (wich i would call broken anyway, items make games item v item, not build v build)

but if you happen to be a character gimping himself for life points, managed to get your character to level 360 (4 levels an event x 4 events per year x 23 years HA!) are playing a beast race, manage to check out at a very high wealth level and walking around drinking a potion anytime you feel a "scene" has changed every event you can manage

=21 life, and congrats on that, you deserve it.

if you are level 20 playing a human character that is common and master path well say witch hunter who does not drink potions every "scene" like there going out of style but DID get a sage buff (good for you) dont sign out at a super high wealth level and have accuarte armor (good for you) you can manage

=10 life, this is good, you have more life then probobly 75% of the player base.

oh but im sorry, that level 20 rogue can go right through that life with 4, 8, 12 vorpal. now had he been down to 3, 6, 9 vorpal you could have survived that and screamed or called for help. . .oh i know im sorry, dont blame me though, i told them

EDIT: btw brian you keep going on about fighter vs other class. and have not actually commented at all about your thoughts on 3, 6, 9 becoming 4, 8, 12?

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:03 pm

so i just went through the whole rulebook and little boonus books, and have come up with what i belive to be max life:

2 - beast race (i think, it said +1, but phys rep gave it +1 if i recall)
3 - warrior
2 - common
2 - vigor from witch hunter/pikeman
1 - wealth level
2 - perks
1 - level 20
1 - level 40
1 - level 80
1 - level 160
1 - level 320
1 - sage buff (does not stack with strength of body)
1 - realistic armor (maybe not, this could be the phys rep i was refering too)
4 - strength of body (per scene makes this useless against an assassin)

but if you happen to be a character gimping himself for life points, managed to get your character to level 360 (4 levels an event x 4 events per year x 23 years HA!) are playing a beast race, manage to check out at a very high wealth level and walking around drinking a potion anytime you feel a "scene" has changed every event you can manage

=21 life, and congrats on that, you deserve it.

Actualy, just to show you I inderstand the min max math mindset:
Race....................................1
Path.....................................3
Disciplines............................3
Lifestyle...............................2
Perks...................................3
Costume phys rep................1
armor phys rep....................1
wealth.................................1
level.....................................5
sub total..............................20
strength of body potion.........4
total.....................................24

managed to get your character to level 360 (4 levels an event x 4 events per year x 23 years HA!)

5 events a year x 2 chapters =40 levels a year
360 levels/40 per year=9 years
1/2 that time if youbuy levels with nicholson points at each event...and dont die.

if you are level 20 playing a human character that is common and master path well say witch hunter who does not drink potions every "scene" like there going out of style but DID get a sage buff (good for you) dont sign out at a super high wealth level and have accuarte armor (good for you) you can manage =10 life, this is good, you have more life then probobly 75% of the player base.

at 325 build (level 14 is 327) and good armor rep and wealth II you can get 13. tough luck for that rogue ....

EDIT: btw brian you keep going on about fighter vs other class. and have not actually commented at all about your thoughts on 3, 6, 9 becoming 4, 8, 12?

No I keep rebutting your claim that the current damage makes rogues the baddest fighters in the game. Its got nothing to do with MY fighter vs anything or anyone, but a sword and board fighter.

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:03 am

So Ark, you are saying if you build your Rogue/Assassin to kill people.. you have a decent chance at actually killing another PC, if you do it right..

Well sounds like it is built right to me..

As for 3-6-9 vs. 4-8-12 -- I personally have no idea why it went up but I do believe it was due to Rogues complaining that they got nerfed. Personally i do not think 4-8-12 breaks Rogue at all, was it really necessary to raise it, probably not but my philosophy is if it is not broken do not fix it... and even with all the data you have shown I do not see Rogues as broken.

Can Rogue/Assassins murder PC's real good - yes, thats what they are supposed to be able to do. Can they murder NPC's real good, probably.. and again it is what they are supposed to do.

Now just a Base Rogue build, without Assassin.. good burst damage... yes it does, and sometimes that is what is needed in a battle.

As for them not needing to charge Crit Strike or Knockout without a target may actually be an error, I need to check on that - they used to require a target - one of the reasons they have a short charge time compared to Empaths who do not need a target - This may need to be fixed in the next edit.. this is the kind of stuff I am trying to find that was either written out of the rulebook by accident, or just missed.

Malachi · Post by **Malachi** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:18 am

Here's the problem with adding disciplines to an equation to balance a path:

The warrior the rogue is attempting to hit with "Vorpal Crazy Death" is a Samurai with double parry. Guess what? Rogue gets pasted. Well, they could run, I suppose, but I'll count it as a loss.

Here's the meat and potatoes: any character, regardless of path or discipline can sneak up on someone while they're sleeping and kill them. Same goes for two people ganging up on one. Hell, a healer could kill a warrior if they were prepared and caught the victim by surprise. It doesn't make it game breaking. Planning and preparation will allow anyone to kill anyone else. Rogue/Assassin builds just have it laid out easier for them. However, it makes them no more broken than Barry poisoning someone with a cup of Mountain Dew with a splash of Feign Death.

::EDIT::
Phil, they no longer require a target, I promise.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:22 am

Malachi wrote:Here's the problem with adding disciplines to an equation to balance a path:

The warrior the rogue is attempting to hit with "Vorpal Crazy Death" is a Samurai with double parry. Guess what? Rogue gets pasted. Well, they could run, I suppose, but I'll count it as a loss.

Samuria is not a discipline anymore, because it was THE BEST discipline in the game, parry without taking warrior? sold, if samuria was in the book i would NEVER touch warrior again.

2-3 second 6's, we have seen those, and its gross.

Malachi · Post by **Malachi** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:33 am

Just so you know, Samurai totally still exists.

I understand where you're coming from, but looking at everything laid out on the table, the Rogue is just as balanced as most everything else. I know you come from a school of run-and-gun rather than stand and beat people down because it makes more sense to you. If I was as young and as fast as you I'd probably be of the same mind. But really, even if they dropped it back down to 3/6/9, a rogue/assassin could still do 11 Vorpal in one strike. According to your math, that still drops 75% of the player base.

In the grand scheme of things, 3 points of damage really isn't that bad, especially compared to warrior/knights getting access to the ability to swing 3s all day and still use all of their skills.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:11 am

Targets were removed from all skill a while back on purpose.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:03 am

I'm still not entirely sure I even want to join this conversation, but here I am so I guess I'm going to...

Each path is good at what they do well and not so good at what they don't do well. I know this sounds like a "duh" statement but when we are talking about balancing, that's one of the fundamental questions.

Warriors are not good at dealing lots of damage in a single blow. They are good at dealing lots of damage over time while taking a ton of damage to the front. They are vulnerable to sneak attacks to the back. In a pinch, they could drop their shield and deal three damage every blow without any discipline or special skills. They of course then sacrifice some defensive abilities.

Rogues are good at dealing large bursts of damage or knockout with a single blow...and are not so good at most anything else (though they would be if we had more traps and locks in the game). If they were going to attack a warrior from the front and just stand in there, obviously it would not go well as everyone has agreed.

So the premise of the argument is that a rogue maximized to his potential is the best fighter on the field. A maximized rogue is here defined as someone who knows how to fight rogue style, meaning you run in, strike the back, and run out. This person is fast and uses the confusion of the battle to maximize effectiveness. So in the right situation with the right tactic, the rogue is superior. Okay, I can buy that.

What if it's not quite the right situation. Let's take the assassin out of the argument for a moment--I'll put him back in later. Let's even assume the warrior is kind of hard of hearing. He's walking around by himself, looking for trouble. The rogue, hiding is giddy. The warrior, oblivious, walks by, the rogue jumps out and attacks and gets his critical strike in. Now, since we maximized the rogue'sphysical attributes, we should do the same for the warrior to be fair (though I've already made him hard of hearing so other than that). The warrior turns and sees the rogue running away. The warrior, being just as athletic and fast as the rogue, runs after the rogue and eventually beats him into the ground because that's what warriors are good at doing

Now if you add the assassin back in, then I do concede that I need to give my warrior's hearing back, but being just as athletic as before, now with good hearing, he is able to turn before getting struck and either taps to interrupt the charge or simply parry's the assassin's attack. The assassin, being even squishier than your average rogue, dies a quick but painful death.

So yeah, a rogue assassin played by a skilled player in the middle of a chaotic battle can take out most anyone, as they should be able to--that's what they're good at. A skilled assasssin going head to head with an equally skilled warrior will die within a minute, as he should because that's not what he is good at--it's what the other guy is good at.

I don't know, it feels balanced to me. You can't balance a game based upon the unknown physical skills of the players who may play the game. Holding those things equal, different character types win in different situations. And that's what is key in PvP situations.

I don't care about pc/npc battles. So what if the rogue swoops in and kills the monster. It makes them feel heroic and everyone is grateful. Other character types feel heroic at other times if we are doing our job right. Of course, maybe they wouldn't have been able to make the killing blow if the warriors hadn't weakened it first, or maybe it wouldn't even have been there to kill if the empaths could actually hit something once in a while

Anyway, yeah, the no target thing was intentional as was the increase in damage. There were several reasons for it actually. One was an increase in available armor. One was because the warrior is able to swing 3 each swing if he wants to. One had to do with the difficulty of getting the hit off in normal circumstances (as in not optimal). I think there may have been a couple more even but I don't remember them at the moment.

Hope that helps at least understand our madness...

Smitty19 · Post by **Smitty19** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:56 am

Of course, maybe they wouldn't have been able to make the killing blow if the warriors hadn't weakened it first, or maybe it wouldn't even have been there to kill if the empaths could actually hit something once in a while

I don't think I've ever heard you say that to me....(c:

Post by **GM_Chris** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:10 am

I am just happy for some activity on the board.

BTW in playtest healer beats rogue.

And if we are talking Rogue assassin then shouldn't we compare to warrior/men-at-arms

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:59 pm

Mike your discription is spot on to the title of my post.

Imballanced, not overpowered, not broken, Imaballanced, maximised in its strength rather then minimizing its weakness.

Imaballanced characters are far more based on player skill then ballanced classes.

healer is ballanced
sage is ballanced
warrior is ballanced
rogue is imballanced
empath is imballanced
and wizard is broke lying in a corner somewere.
jack of all trades is meh because of the design of the class, i put it inbetween.

warrior provides alot off defensive skill, even if the only good one is parry, and more soak. all of this can be mitigated if you are fast and good about avoiding blows.
offensive skills cannot be mitigated by player skill, you cannot just charge more damage because your fast and good about avoiding blows.

thats Imballance.

as for the damage being up'd because of armor, thats a price i will pay, drop armor a bit and drop crit strike a bit. when it first came out max warriors could swing 4, so i figured rogues just multiplied max damage of warriors:

3 pre = 3, 6, 9
4 post = 4, 8, 12

then damage dealing warriors lost there shiney weapon but rogues got to keep theres, and lets not forget warriors "awsome" swap out skills?