the inballance of rogues

[Ark]

from a tactical standpoint it is much better to maximise your strengths then to minimize your weakness. . .

i have usually in my own snarky way pointed out in passing conversation that i belive rogues to be slightly unballanced. a passing topic on another forum made a really good point and i feel it aplies well to my thought (it was about a french WW2 light tank, but the princible is the same)

first the suposed fact that warrior is the most played class in the game: i drop that one under plain old simplicty then anything else, if you want further explination feel free to ask and ill go into it further.

rogue v warrior: health
max life point difference of 3
max CR difference of 6
max armor difference 0f 3

decent rogue v warrior health: as above except
2
4
3
easy to do with a minimal investment of 60 points, 40 if clever.
for a total soak difference of 9, between the primary melee and the "squishy" rogue

now the major rebutle when dealing with a rogue and a warrior is the damage over time vs crit strike (in the Tank comunity we call this DPM vs Alpha)
however i would also like to point out damage taken over time as well. warriors have to sit and slug it out while rogues run by for one hit (we call this "peek-a-boom")

so lets say you got your fully armored warrior fighting with a monster, hes doing the most damage he can (3 per swing) no shield to help mitigate hits (cant use a shield and swing 3) and cant use his weapon effectivly to block because suposedly he is hitting the enemy for 3 (cant duel 3. . .reasonably)

monster is your standard fight to the death duel claw NPC, ill be nice and saw its only dealing 1 per swing.

warrior has 30 soak, our "squishy" rogue has 21 (9 less see above) and NPC has unlimited soak as per this calculation.

well say everyone gets 1 swing per weapon every second.

warrior v NPC: standard slug fest, warrior and NPC swing till one drops.
warrior dies after 15 seconds inflicting 45 points of damage on the NPC

"squishy" rogue v NPC: standard battle, rogue charges safe distance running past for a crit strike, well say the NPC is really compitent and gets off 2 swings while the rogue runs by.
rogues dies on there 10th pass, after after about 4-5 min of fighting (run time between charge and strike) and inflicting. . .120 points of damage on the NPC.

this was also a rogue NOT using two weapon and getting another hit in there, and an NPC facing the rogue waiting for it to run by (bad rogue, hit them in the back geez)

so while in the same amount of time a warrior could do much more damage it does not matter. . .dead = 0 dpm. in the practical world were NPC's are distracted, rogues have time to charge, and usual warriors swing 2, rogues pull ahead.

difference is all the greater with magic items and buffs increasing rogue damage, reducing charge time, etc.

4 damage was too much, dodge and dive for cover was just gravy.

***but Ark, if rogue's are so powerfull why dont you play them?
because i dont like them
***but Ark, i thought you said crit strike is broke? why dont you use it
i do, sad to think my warrior gets its damage from a "squishy" class
***but Ark, what about empaths? they do far more damage then me?
yes but they are properly balanced and packets are hard to throw
***but Ark, im not nearly that effective as my rogue?
play smarter and run faster
***but Ark, you have parry!?
NPC's cant swing more then a base of 2 damage withought people rage quiting, at most the rare 5 crush comes up, ill trade it for a skill to negate 30 magic thank you.

[Ark]

after that wall of text i wanted to throw out some ideas to help fix the situation.

-drop rogues back to 3 per charge, this was fine with there new skills and should not have changed

-introduce a DR (damage reduction) system for warriors to help mitigate (not get rid of) damage
DR 1/-1 reduces all damage by 1 down to a minimum of 1
1 = 1
2 = 1
3 = 2
every hit still matters but warrior is more survivable with no soak increase, i know a system like this is around and has been used for monsters, could be used in other classes (spells) as well

example: caster casts magic skin DR 2 magic/-1
1 = 1
2 = 1
3 magic = 3
4 = 2

etc.

[GM-Phil]

I won't even begin to detail the many flaws in your examples - I am sure Brian may do that anyway.

I will state though that while I agree Ithink Vrit strike should be dropped back to 3-6-9 at the current time I do not think Rouges are broken or all that imbalanced. Rogues are tactical fighters and do it well. In a straight 1 on 1 slugfest they are no better than any other class besides Empath.

As of this season and last, I have seen many people pick up Rogue (usually wth Assassin) and were pretty good in a fight, as long as they fought smart. Now in PVP, that is where the Rogue really shines.

[Wyrmwrath]

Thanks for the hand off phil, but I wont waste my time nit picking when a sentence will do.

Stop using MMPOG min max math for live combat, it just doesnt work, because it isnt based in reality.

Ark, I will take a warrior against any rogue you build, promise the rogue will drop. The major flaw in the above argument is making a warrior use a single weapon for three, which is simply stupid in LARP combat when the down side is losing the shield and parry.

[Ark]

In a straight 1 on 1 slugfest they are no better than any other class besides Empath.

those dont really happen at larp. FH favors runing past an NPC, doing a large burst of damage, and runing away. max gain, minimal resources expended. warriors expend alot of resources to do what they do (ask the healers)

As of this season and last, I have seen many people pick up Rogue

exactly

[Ark]

Stop using MMPOG min max math for live combat, it just doesnt work, because it isnt based in reality.

a what now? and reality cant be ballanced people differ, all you can ballance is the numbers, judge by what you see in the game, and tweak from there. wizard is ballanced by the numbers, and obviously not by what you see in the game (though i hear that should change)

Ark, I will take a warrior against any rogue you build, promise the rogue will drop. The major flaw in the above argument is making a warrior use a single weapon for three, which is simply stupid in LARP combat when the down side is losing the shield and parry.

your absolutly right, i played a warrior that used only 1 weapon and no shield for RP reason, it is one of the most underpowered builds in this game.

you will notice i didnt compare rogue v fighter? im comparing both v NPC (wich i asume is the majority of this game right?)

PVP rogue v fighter is balanced in that both swing till they drop, in that situation the rogue cannot charge, and therefore increasing damage seems ballanced. by that design a 3 second charge for 200 damage would seem balanced as the warrior would still win, however PVE it is very much not so.

BTW i have fun NPC i get to play from time to time, who is a rogue, if you play a fighter at some point i will probobly get to say "told you so"

[cole45]

Your argument is that Rogue is very good as run and gun burst damage and warrior is good and stand and fight tanking.


I don't see how you do anything BUT prove it's fine.

[GM_Chris]

The effectiveness of fighting NPC's as a rogue depends entirely on the number of phys reps. If I am playing a competent NPC and I see a rogue running at me I just need to him or her with my weapon BEFORE he or she hits me.

[Wyrmwrath]

The best way to make sure classes ARE balanced is by looking at the PVP. The reason for that is that NPCs can be alteres in seconds, PCs not so. If one build/class blows all the others away, you have a build that will run roughshot over the other players, at which point PVE effect is moot.

from a tactical standpoint it is much better to maximise your strengths then to minimize your weakness. . .

Incorrect, since in combat defense is always the more critical game changing factor.

well say everyone gets 1 swing per weapon every second.

this theroy is where your concept fails, because its based in no reality and therefore does not support any formulae you try to build on it.

You theroy also does not factor in number of hits and misses, and the fact a warrior can doe more damage in a second than your rogue bild can if your counting everything as a hit.

and packets are hard to throw

They ar likely as hard for you to throw accurately as run by swattings are for others. Another thing you havent factored in.

NPC's cant swing more then a base of 2 damage withought people rage quiting, at most the rare 5 crush comes up, ill trade it for a skill to negate 30 magic thank you.

Again, unture. I have played NPC and faced NPC that swung more. Anyone that "rage quits" because of that, isnt playing for the right reasons anyhow. If thats ALL they were swinging for, id agree.

Also, as a warrior I have a skill that beats yours for taking 30 channels, its called SHIELD. Mine works rapid fire and costs no life points...you cant say the same about yours.

[Ark]

Your argument is that Rogue is very good as run and gun burst damage and warrior is good and stand and fight tanking.


I don't see how you do anything BUT prove it's fine.

Rogue WAS good when it was 3, 6, 9. now its TOO good, the other abilities added were just gravy.

warrior is NOT good at stand and tank fighting, because the resource cost is too high, its just *slightly* better then other paths. anyone can use a shield, at most its 20 points. so lets look at the "tank" skills a warrior gets. all based on opinion

deffensive matrix: Horrid skill, drop all offense to gain a bit more defense, at best your dying slower without hurting the enemy.

Hold ground: not nearly as bad deffensive matrix, though easy to counter this skill. back out of melee range and chuck packets, he cant move or he dies. if you cant move in combat you loose. its the maginot line of warrior skills, ask the french how well that worked in WW2

Parry: solid skill, usefull with limits, though this skill is the reason warriors are so badly ballanced so meh. i would be more then willing to increase the cost of this skill if thats what it takes to get a buff.

[Ark]

The effectiveness of fighting NPC's as a rogue depends entirely on the number of phys reps. If I am playing a competent NPC and I see a rogue running at me I just need to him or her with my weapon BEFORE he or she hits me.

and Chris you know that a standard FH battle has been at the most maybe 6- most NPC's and 15+ min PC's

you also know how hard it is to track individual people running around when your going through hit point calculations in your head, spinning around trying to fight multiple PC's and trying to make the encounter play out how you want it too, worrying about making a rogue fail his crit strike is not high on the list of priorities, and when I ran SH it was at the bottom, we liked dying when hit with a rogue crit and empath boom, made them feel powerfull.

[Wyrmwrath]

warrior is NOT good at stand and tank fighting, because the resource cost is too high, its just *slightly* better then other paths

.

Pretend I am looking at you like you have three heads and a clown nose...cause I am. NOT a good front linr fighter?! Your daft. WHile I will agree its now possible to make choices to make a warrior bad up front, at its core its the best up front.
Very easy to get large soak, best armor, best constant damage, very wide range of resists. What rescources are you using, causse...i rarely use any.

anyone can use a shield, at most its 20 points. so lets look at the "tank" skills a warrior gets.

WHile anyone can get it, the warrior uses one best. Dont see how thats the same elsewhere.

deffensive matrix: Horrid skill, drop all offense to gain a bit more defense, at best your dying slower without hurting the enemy.

I have been agreeing since my first PC Jux the orc warlord, I have never used it. Would love a skill to swap it for,

Hold ground: not nearly as bad deffensive matrix, though easy to counter this skill. back out of melee range and chuck packets, he cant move or he dies. if you cant move in combat you loose.

MOSTLY agree, I used it once....in all my FH LARPing years, BUT that one time it saved my hide. It just needs to be used smart, like many skills, even the rogue crit strike.

Parry: solid skill, usefull with limits, though this skill is the reason warriors are so badly ballanced so meh. i would be more then willing to increase the cost of this skill if thats what it takes to get a buff.

You are off on this. works on any frontal melee number attack and disarm. I love it.

you also know how hard it is to track individual people running around when your going through hit point calculations in your head, spinning around trying to fight multiple (targets)

Again, this is going to vary by combatant, and has naught to do with how well the classes are balanced.

[GM-Phil]

My only comments are on these -

Defensive Matrix - While you guys seem to find this a horrid skill - I have found this skill to be extremely situationaly useful (like any skill) - especially for second line fighters that I play. Would not leave home without it.

Hold Ground - Have also used this skill many times to great effect, up to and including helping to take out a Doom Worm while I was diseased. Again like any skill if you use it at the wrong times, of course it sucks.

Parry - Nuff said, one of the best defensive skills in the game.

And these skills are why a Warrior in the front line will still be there when any other character Path (assuming like gear and level) is down or healing.

[Ark]

I am glad we agree on a few thing.

i consider "resources" to be amount of damage taken for the most part. Rogue can take the least per damage delt to a random NPC (run by and hit)
i also dont like many of the warrior swap outs:
-a advanced group buff that should have been a mage spell.
-a advanced crush attack that *could have been decent had it been a charge up for more damage and not weapon restricted.
-a basic skill that KILLS you.
-and a master skill that is. . .political? sigh

i forget witch can were heavy if its sage or healer, i think healer, but darned if i can find a rulebook on this site anywere

so well say Healer
same max armor as the warrior
can spend 40-60 points to gain determination, CR, vigor.
second level swap out for CR
can invest in use shield as well

total soak difference = 4
the only critical thing is parry, and i think we can both agree, thats the warriors best skill, and one of the only actual reasons to take warrior. however a weapon can still be broke in times of emergency.

and at a loss of no healing skills, and a discipline up for grabs too.

**However**

we are getting away from the point.

3, 6, 9. . .why was that increased? dodge and dive for cover more then made up for any would be weakness.

[Malachi]

It's so they can destroy Empaths just as well as Warriors destroy Rogues.