I plan on getting the rules suggestion forum unlocked and moving some stuff around, but in the mean time this place looks like a good place for people to brainstorm what they would like for spell casting wizards.
Historical Background
The biggest problem with potions is that essentially you are creating a one charge magic item without expiration. In addition the alchemist discipline had the same problem as arcane in that it was a single discipline that gave an infinite amount of skills. Lastly, we had a huge stock pile problem with characters hording 50-70 potions at a time.
Potions were bound by costing mystic to make. We removed this cost per potion, and instead introduced alchemy labs that had a cost. We limited the amount of potions that can be made to bring it in line with other disciplines and paths.
Rules:
1) Post your ideas anything will fly no matter how crazy
2) If you want to comment on another players ideas they must be entirely positive. For example: I really liked your idea about .....
GM Rules
1) Only post points of clarification or to help flesh out a player's idea.
Note:
Just because a GM posts about one comment over another does not mean we like it more. Also, we may not use any idea posted or we might use everything in one giant ball of awesome.
Wizard (Alchemy Only)
Moderator: Admin
Wizard (Alchemy Only)
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
i would asume because new potion tags are being issued every event by the GM staff, that even a simple date stamp like used on library books could be added to them.
after that we just hope people dont cheeze and use expired potions, though i could barely type that seriously so ill think about it. . .
after that we just hope people dont cheeze and use expired potions, though i could barely type that seriously so ill think about it. . .
Is it supposed to say "brainstorm what they would like for spell casting wizards." here?
Anyway - my thoughts on Alchemy.
I think what most people enjoy about it is the versatile-ness. That's the #1 thing you don't want to take away from the players. From there on we can dip our fingers into the pot and discuss what you see as negatives.
First off, the only reason alchemy go way out of hand was because the GMs let it. Not trying to be negative there, but you should remember you're in control and controlled how many new spells/potions went in and how often. I have more thoughts on the old alchemy method and if you want to hear them, let me know otherwise, I'll just respond to what you had posted.
The biggest problem with potions is that essentially you are creating a one charge magic item without expiration.
Not sure why that's a problem, but if it is, then why isn't there an expiration date? You can have all regular potions expire 1 year after they have been brewed. Just add "expires: 1 year" on the tag. When they are passed out, stamp them with the current date - or a 1, 2, 3, 4 (indicating if it's the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th event of the year) If you want to add a bit more complication, some potions expire faster than others. "special" plot potions could/should expire too - or not, depending on how the GM's feel about it. If you decide not to play the game for over a year - Oh well.
In addition the alchemist discipline had the same problem as arcane in that it was a single discipline that gave an infinite amount of skills.
You kinda "fixed" that with the current set up. Although I think most alchemists don't particularly like how the potions you can brew are pretty much set in stone.
Lastly, we had a huge stock pile problem with characters hording 50-70 potions at a time.
Again - not sure how/why this is considered a problem. We took the time and resources to brew them - why does it matter if we actually use them or hoard them? But if you DO feel this is a problem, the above mentioned expiration date would fix it, forcing us to use our potions more regularly or having them just expire.
Potions were bound by costing mystic to make. We removed this cost per potion, and instead introduced alchemy labs that had a cost. We limited the amount of potions that can be made to bring it in line with other disciplines and paths.
True, but you do have a lot of grumpy alchemists that are "locked" into being able to only make the same few spells over and over and over. There was a discussion about this on some other thread probably over a year ago.
Remember the old D&D wizard who could only know X amount of spells, but could only memorize Y spells per day? I think that would be an awesome compromise. The potions you get in between events never changes, but allow a small amount of wiggle room with your alchemy lab potions. Maybe instead of brewing a cure 2 potion, I'll brew cleanse this event. I'm not sure how that's over powered - especially if you implement an expiration date.
One thing I feel I need to mention is that I really miss how the mandatory role playing was dropped from potion brewing. When I first started playing the game, a group of us alchemists would go out - with a few warrior types, and walk down the road for about 15 minutes, mess around with the weeds on the side of the road for a bit and come back to town with the fresh herbs we just foraged for. I realized that the mandatory time to get your herbs turned into, "I'm going to forage for them right here in the corner of the inn." I also realize that nothing is really stopping us from doing that still for the sake of role playing - but I think it's viewed now that since we don't have to, we shouldn't. You can't justify gathering a bunch of players, for safety's sake to role play gathering herbs. Especially when there's plots to be run, etc..
I just want that feeling back in the game again. I want there to be more to alchemy than paying X mystic components at check in, waiting a few hours and heading back to NPC camp to collect my potions I just brewed. At least with the old system, your alchemy lab was active most of, if not all of the event.
I could continue, but I feel I'm starting to rant and if I did continue, it would probably turn into some sort of rant.
Everyone else, please post and let's get some ideas flowing!
Anyway - my thoughts on Alchemy.
I think what most people enjoy about it is the versatile-ness. That's the #1 thing you don't want to take away from the players. From there on we can dip our fingers into the pot and discuss what you see as negatives.
First off, the only reason alchemy go way out of hand was because the GMs let it. Not trying to be negative there, but you should remember you're in control and controlled how many new spells/potions went in and how often. I have more thoughts on the old alchemy method and if you want to hear them, let me know otherwise, I'll just respond to what you had posted.
The biggest problem with potions is that essentially you are creating a one charge magic item without expiration.
Not sure why that's a problem, but if it is, then why isn't there an expiration date? You can have all regular potions expire 1 year after they have been brewed. Just add "expires: 1 year" on the tag. When they are passed out, stamp them with the current date - or a 1, 2, 3, 4 (indicating if it's the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th event of the year) If you want to add a bit more complication, some potions expire faster than others. "special" plot potions could/should expire too - or not, depending on how the GM's feel about it. If you decide not to play the game for over a year - Oh well.
In addition the alchemist discipline had the same problem as arcane in that it was a single discipline that gave an infinite amount of skills.
You kinda "fixed" that with the current set up. Although I think most alchemists don't particularly like how the potions you can brew are pretty much set in stone.
Lastly, we had a huge stock pile problem with characters hording 50-70 potions at a time.
Again - not sure how/why this is considered a problem. We took the time and resources to brew them - why does it matter if we actually use them or hoard them? But if you DO feel this is a problem, the above mentioned expiration date would fix it, forcing us to use our potions more regularly or having them just expire.
Potions were bound by costing mystic to make. We removed this cost per potion, and instead introduced alchemy labs that had a cost. We limited the amount of potions that can be made to bring it in line with other disciplines and paths.
True, but you do have a lot of grumpy alchemists that are "locked" into being able to only make the same few spells over and over and over. There was a discussion about this on some other thread probably over a year ago.
Remember the old D&D wizard who could only know X amount of spells, but could only memorize Y spells per day? I think that would be an awesome compromise. The potions you get in between events never changes, but allow a small amount of wiggle room with your alchemy lab potions. Maybe instead of brewing a cure 2 potion, I'll brew cleanse this event. I'm not sure how that's over powered - especially if you implement an expiration date.
One thing I feel I need to mention is that I really miss how the mandatory role playing was dropped from potion brewing. When I first started playing the game, a group of us alchemists would go out - with a few warrior types, and walk down the road for about 15 minutes, mess around with the weeds on the side of the road for a bit and come back to town with the fresh herbs we just foraged for. I realized that the mandatory time to get your herbs turned into, "I'm going to forage for them right here in the corner of the inn." I also realize that nothing is really stopping us from doing that still for the sake of role playing - but I think it's viewed now that since we don't have to, we shouldn't. You can't justify gathering a bunch of players, for safety's sake to role play gathering herbs. Especially when there's plots to be run, etc..
I just want that feeling back in the game again. I want there to be more to alchemy than paying X mystic components at check in, waiting a few hours and heading back to NPC camp to collect my potions I just brewed. At least with the old system, your alchemy lab was active most of, if not all of the event.
I could continue, but I feel I'm starting to rant and if I did continue, it would probably turn into some sort of rant.
Everyone else, please post and let's get some ideas flowing!
actually something Zydana said cought me.
if you do add an expiration date perhaps change the color of the paper tags are printed on?
event 1 blue
event 2 red
event 3 green
event 4 yellow
etc.
that would be if they expired in one event or something, if it was 1 year then 1 color per year. then it would be fairly obvious if someones potions was expired or not.
also was mentioned the versitility, i think Jack of all trades has taken away some of the wizard crowd if im not mistaken.
if you do add an expiration date perhaps change the color of the paper tags are printed on?
event 1 blue
event 2 red
event 3 green
event 4 yellow
etc.
that would be if they expired in one event or something, if it was 1 year then 1 color per year. then it would be fairly obvious if someones potions was expired or not.
also was mentioned the versitility, i think Jack of all trades has taken away some of the wizard crowd if im not mistaken.
I'd say go with the stamp. You really do need some sort of date/time indicator on them and specific instructions. I'm not sure color would work. If I got my blue tag for event 1 and don't use it, why wouldn't I just hold onto it until event 1 next year?
I'm pretty sure that all new tags are not printed for each event. It would be a waste of money and paper. Tags that don't get used/passed out one event are kept in the stock pile until next event/until they are used and then are replenished as needed when noticed the pile of a particular tag is getting low (unless wording/rules have changed).
Color coding with paper would only make them spend more money to have them printed on the new color and then they'd have to have that much more storage for tags until the next event with that color rolls around to use those unused colored tags.
Good concept though - just not really feasible.
I'm pretty sure that all new tags are not printed for each event. It would be a waste of money and paper. Tags that don't get used/passed out one event are kept in the stock pile until next event/until they are used and then are replenished as needed when noticed the pile of a particular tag is getting low (unless wording/rules have changed).
Color coding with paper would only make them spend more money to have them printed on the new color and then they'd have to have that much more storage for tags until the next event with that color rolls around to use those unused colored tags.
Good concept though - just not really feasible.
Both the alchemy and spell system should be set up along similar lines, since both "professions" or arch types are SUPPOSED to be about the flexability of the mages/alchemists found/researched spell list/recepies. Of cource this isnt a new gripe from me.
Both systems could have a behind the scenes list of 50 to 100 spells/recepies per rank (basic/advanced/master) that anyone with wizard or arcanist/alchemist could research/find/trade for. Keep in mind, this would add another form of treasure for the player base as recipies, especially rare ones, would become currency.
I think an expiration date is a fantastic idea. It would mean that alchemists will face less of a lull in the demand for thier wares, and in that way be more in line with mages, whose spells last an event at best.
If potions/elixirs expire, the alchemist will not be able to stock up on the master potions that are rarely needed as efficiently and that will promote the need for a larger number of potion sources with a more varied recepie list.
Date stamp would be easiest, especially if the potions need to be stamped at every check in. This way they are constantly checked, will expire in whatever time frame the GMS feel correct, and cant be used if the tag doesnt have a stamp for that current event.
Both systems could have a behind the scenes list of 50 to 100 spells/recepies per rank (basic/advanced/master) that anyone with wizard or arcanist/alchemist could research/find/trade for. Keep in mind, this would add another form of treasure for the player base as recipies, especially rare ones, would become currency.
I think an expiration date is a fantastic idea. It would mean that alchemists will face less of a lull in the demand for thier wares, and in that way be more in line with mages, whose spells last an event at best.
If potions/elixirs expire, the alchemist will not be able to stock up on the master potions that are rarely needed as efficiently and that will promote the need for a larger number of potion sources with a more varied recepie list.
Date stamp would be easiest, especially if the potions need to be stamped at every check in. This way they are constantly checked, will expire in whatever time frame the GMS feel correct, and cant be used if the tag doesnt have a stamp for that current event.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
Because the wizard will get to use them no where near as frequently as another archtype....and who says any one wizard will have access to all the spells/potions on the list?
To be blunt...because the players that play those roles want it that way so that they can feel useful. there isnt another class that can seriously say they are anywhere near as ineffective as often as dedicated mages and alchemists.
You seem to fear doing something in FH that is a staple in almost EVERY other fantasy game. In fact when FH did have a system like this, only reason it didnt work because the staff didnt moniter it like was need (yes I understand you didnt have the number of staff needed to get everything done then).
To be blunt...because the players that play those roles want it that way so that they can feel useful. there isnt another class that can seriously say they are anywhere near as ineffective as often as dedicated mages and alchemists.
You seem to fear doing something in FH that is a staple in almost EVERY other fantasy game. In fact when FH did have a system like this, only reason it didnt work because the staff didnt moniter it like was need (yes I understand you didnt have the number of staff needed to get everything done then).
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
and many times in EACH fight, just like crit attacks or healing or mimic or spot or ...anything that isnt a wizard spell in fact.
Those MIGHT be uses once or twice a combat...unless its counterspell and there is an enemy caster.
Those MIGHT be uses once or twice a combat...unless its counterspell and there is an enemy caster.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
Okay let's look at this -
(mind you, I'm looking at the .pdf on the site, so if the information I present is skewed, that's why)
Frist Aid - basic healer skill
VS
Cure Wounds 3 - Advanced Wizard skill
Both skills heal for 3...
But the healer skill takes 1 minute. Wizard skill you can get 1 "for free" at check in, after that it takes 10 minutes each with an alchemy lab + magic components and you're limited to only getting 2 more that event - then you're done. Can't do that skill anymore in the game. The healer skill you can do every minute for the whole event if needed.
The trade off -
The healer skill can only be used on someone in negative life (that's actually pretty huge - not very many skills you can use to bring someone back from negatives. The healer themselves must actually preform this skill.
The potion you can use for later and in fact hand off to someone else. In fact, it might be better to do so. Handing it to a sage or healer brings the potion to a +4 now instead of a +3. If the sage/healer has the correct sage buff/augment, it is now a +5..
okay, so now you have a 10 minute timed skill, that also requires mystic components, that can potentially an instant +5 heal. Keep in mind, this is still an advanced skill. (keep in mind we are now using combinations of skills to do that).
A healer's basic skill, Basic Heal, under the new rules takes 2.5 minutes to heal for 5.
A Paladin (a discipline, not path) Level 3 skill "Lay on Hands" however can cure 4 in a minute or 5 in 1.25 minutes. If the paladin is also a healer in the way the skill describes, the Paladin can heal 5 instantaneously - the trade off being they spend a life for each life healed. Also, the Paladin must be present for the skill.
The Paladin, nor the healer is limited to how many times they may preform that skill per event. The wizard, however, is still limited.
(mind you, I'm looking at the .pdf on the site, so if the information I present is skewed, that's why)
Frist Aid - basic healer skill
VS
Cure Wounds 3 - Advanced Wizard skill
Both skills heal for 3...
But the healer skill takes 1 minute. Wizard skill you can get 1 "for free" at check in, after that it takes 10 minutes each with an alchemy lab + magic components and you're limited to only getting 2 more that event - then you're done. Can't do that skill anymore in the game. The healer skill you can do every minute for the whole event if needed.
The trade off -
The healer skill can only be used on someone in negative life (that's actually pretty huge - not very many skills you can use to bring someone back from negatives. The healer themselves must actually preform this skill.
The potion you can use for later and in fact hand off to someone else. In fact, it might be better to do so. Handing it to a sage or healer brings the potion to a +4 now instead of a +3. If the sage/healer has the correct sage buff/augment, it is now a +5..
okay, so now you have a 10 minute timed skill, that also requires mystic components, that can potentially an instant +5 heal. Keep in mind, this is still an advanced skill. (keep in mind we are now using combinations of skills to do that).
A healer's basic skill, Basic Heal, under the new rules takes 2.5 minutes to heal for 5.
A Paladin (a discipline, not path) Level 3 skill "Lay on Hands" however can cure 4 in a minute or 5 in 1.25 minutes. If the paladin is also a healer in the way the skill describes, the Paladin can heal 5 instantaneously - the trade off being they spend a life for each life healed. Also, the Paladin must be present for the skill.
The Paladin, nor the healer is limited to how many times they may preform that skill per event. The wizard, however, is still limited.