Actually the Wizard path is still a flexible support path. Unless you mean that (1) Wizard can no longer be a 1 man support machine, then yes it is not as flexible as it once was, nor do I feel it should be.
I have brought this argument to several people and will stick by it. If you are a Wizard and a potion is needed and you cannot make it, then you need to find another Wizard or merchant that has it.. To me that is how it should be.
Stirring the pot...again...((arcane/alchemist changes))
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One potential solution might be to do away with the Wizard/Alchemist/Arcane system completely. Simply have spells and recipes that are tagged, non-copyable items that anyone (provided they have the required materials) can use. Balance it by limiting the number of spells and recipes in-game as well as the components needed to cast/brew. Then your flexibility is dependent on your in-game ability to get what you need and not a mechanic. New and unique spells/recipes could be introduced without fear of everyone and their mother having them, and no character would be dependent on magic/alchemy to feel useful.
Or we could have both. A limited path, and flexible as above.
Or we could have both. A limited path, and flexible as above.
Travis Cole
Of course, if you let them choose their "loadout" at check-in, you add variety at the same time as restricting power that one person can wield at any given time. Because that variety is all guesswork before any game-on narration ever has a chance to swing the decision.
If certain spells are "the best ones to take", they'll be taken either way. One way just adds a modicum of variety, without ever raising the actual total of spells or potions you can have per character.
Especially as you can even keep "Wizard only" potions and spells, AND make the players choose whether an arcane spell effect "slot" is a potion/spell when first purchased, and then it's stuck permanently like that. So a basic slot that's checked as "spell" can only have a basic spell put there. No potion, ever.
**Also, no doubling up on potions to get more of 'X' type per check-in.***
It's kind of like in DnD where you can have a large lexicon of spells, but can only hold a certain number in your brain at a time. 'Knowledge as power' stays put, but a character's abilities are kept finite.
A discipline mage would only ever have 4 variable choices per event that are restricted by level to each level of discipline they have, same as now.
A Wizard would have 12, also restricted (4 basic, 4 Adv., 4 master.)
As a player that has not, nor will ever likely play either way, I would have absolutely no hard feelings about "Garritt can only ever do "X" number of skills".
Heck, I told Travis of a similar scheme way back when Discipline was the only way to go.
If certain spells are "the best ones to take", they'll be taken either way. One way just adds a modicum of variety, without ever raising the actual total of spells or potions you can have per character.
Especially as you can even keep "Wizard only" potions and spells, AND make the players choose whether an arcane spell effect "slot" is a potion/spell when first purchased, and then it's stuck permanently like that. So a basic slot that's checked as "spell" can only have a basic spell put there. No potion, ever.
**Also, no doubling up on potions to get more of 'X' type per check-in.***
It's kind of like in DnD where you can have a large lexicon of spells, but can only hold a certain number in your brain at a time. 'Knowledge as power' stays put, but a character's abilities are kept finite.
A discipline mage would only ever have 4 variable choices per event that are restricted by level to each level of discipline they have, same as now.
A Wizard would have 12, also restricted (4 basic, 4 Adv., 4 master.)
As a player that has not, nor will ever likely play either way, I would have absolutely no hard feelings about "Garritt can only ever do "X" number of skills".
Heck, I told Travis of a similar scheme way back when Discipline was the only way to go.
Last edited by Garritt on Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nope. Garritt knows how to track all kinds of people with one skill. An alchemist knows how to mix liquids for different effects. It would be like restricting me to only being able to know how to track "Orcs and goblin-kin", and if I'm trying instead to track a Tsunataur, I'm boned and have to find another guy that knows how.
Master Weapon Focus doesn't restrict to certain forms of weapon.
Dual wield doesn't have to specify weapon.
Use Shield doesn't say what size shield.
Most paths are buying skills that are reliable and always available. The 4th level "5 vorpal" with a pike can be used every 15 seconds, from the beginning of the event to the end. A 36-hour event (about standard) gives anywhere between 0 and 129,600 uses of that skill as max.
A master level Alchemy potion can be used 3 times an event, and most master spells can only be used every 10-20 uninterrupted minutes (even at the cost of using their other skills.)
Wizards/Arcanists are buying (in my idea) a completely guessed-at and pre-prepared versatility with either a severely limited number of uses/speed of castings as the drawback.
Master Weapon Focus doesn't restrict to certain forms of weapon.
Dual wield doesn't have to specify weapon.
Use Shield doesn't say what size shield.
Most paths are buying skills that are reliable and always available. The 4th level "5 vorpal" with a pike can be used every 15 seconds, from the beginning of the event to the end. A 36-hour event (about standard) gives anywhere between 0 and 129,600 uses of that skill as max.
A master level Alchemy potion can be used 3 times an event, and most master spells can only be used every 10-20 uninterrupted minutes (even at the cost of using their other skills.)
Wizards/Arcanists are buying (in my idea) a completely guessed-at and pre-prepared versatility with either a severely limited number of uses/speed of castings as the drawback.
Last edited by Garritt on Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1) was one of my posts deleted?!?!?!
2)
How is it flexable if they ALWAYS have the same spells/potions available? Thats called static, not flexable.
They should just be able to acquire a list longer than 2 to 4 effects per level EVER, cause thats just boring and not at all the notion behind the archtype used.
And shame on you for using Harry Potter as a benchmark and making me do it to...bad...bad GM!
2)
Actually the Wizard path is still a flexible support path.
How is it flexable if they ALWAYS have the same spells/potions available? Thats called static, not flexable.
Unless you mean that (1) Wizard can no longer be a 1 man support machine, then yes it is not as flexible as it once was, nor do I feel it should be.
Not what I meant at all. I do not hink a wizard/alchemist should be able to have EVERY spell/recipe unless they are a few hundres levels. Maybe THEN they have the experience to have most or all of them...maybe.no one charcter should have all the tools.
They should just be able to acquire a list longer than 2 to 4 effects per level EVER, cause thats just boring and not at all the notion behind the archtype used.
The problem with using that as a counter to my suggestion...is that IS how it would be. If they didnt pick the right spell/potion at check in...its go fish time.If you are a Wizard and a potion is needed and you cannot make it, then you need to find another Wizard or merchant that has it.. To me that is how it should be.
That may be, but you have not even an inkling of the skill level that a level 4 disciplione is supposed to portray, and the kids in the movie...were just that...kids...students. How many potion recepies do you think SNape knows?....6....9...12? Im guessing there are a few commas in the number of varities he knows. THATS a level 4 master path, not what your using as an example.I know how to cook certain things and not other things. Heck Harry potter even with a book in front of him often times could not produce the same effect as Hermini how ever its spelled
And shame on you for using Harry Potter as a benchmark and making me do it to...bad...bad GM!
Nope. They are the archtypes they are crafted after.but dont you think we should let all paths pick their skills at checj-in
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
They can.They should just be able to acquire a list longer than 2 to 4 effects per level EVER, cause thats just boring and not at all the notion behind the archtype used.
Master Wizard - 4 Basic, 4 Advanced, 4 Master = 150pts
Master Arcanist - 2 Basic, 1 Advanced, 1 Master = 90pts
That leaves a character with (@ 20th lvl) 95 additional points with which to purchase more Wizard spells at 20pts for Basic, 40pts for Advanced, and 60pts for Master. After you reach the threshold of 335pts, learning slows down dramatically, earning only 2pts per event, but it is still possible to save up enough to learn even more spells.
Morgan Cyprian
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soooo..you didnt see the lottery numbers from my prophetic dream in that one posts last lines before I remived them....bad timing...I only read the first sentence of any of your posts so I had no reason to delete anything either.
Well aside from the fact they cannot actualy buy any additional wizard path skills, since you cant buy extra of your primary path, you are correct. Yes they can end up with 6 basic 5 advanced and 5 master spells/potions... if they do naught else. I knew this and my number of 3 to 4 was exageration to make a point.They can.They should just be able to acquire a list longer than 2 to 4 effects per level EVER, cause thats just boring and not at all the notion behind the archtype used.
Master Wizard - 4 Basic, 4 Advanced, 4 Master = 150pts
Master Arcanist - 2 Basic, 1 Advanced, 1 Master = 90pts
That leaves a character with (@ 20th lvl) 95 additional points with which to purchase more Wizard spells at 20pts for Basic, 40pts for Advanced, and 60pts for Master. After you reach the threshold of 335pts, learning slows down dramatically, earning only 2pts per event, but it is still possible to save up enough to learn even more spells.
Also once they hit level level 32 they can actuly have 2 skills from a second discipline, and one form a third and one basic skill from a DIFFERENT path. They could also wait until level 100 and get a full three levels of a second discipline. But here is here is the rub...
Once they have selected those 16 recepies, as an alchemist, and made them (since there is no advantage and a few disadvantages to NOT doing them right off)...those 150 points are useless...even IF the potions they made were not helpful because of the plot/foes they or the town face.
No other set of skills paid with that same 150 points is spent for the event, AND they dont even have the chance to change it up next event to TRY to be more helpful/effective. Wizards/arcanes do not have it as bad since thier spells are re usable, hence why I focus more on the alchemists.
Yes I know healing potions can always be helpful, same with a few of the others. Yes the potions do not expire and can be carried over event to event, but so can the items a crafter makes. I am not saying the should get to make a greater NUMBER, just have the ability to brew from a broader list...not the ENTIRE list.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
you can buy them with jack if all trades. and you can buy the expansion skills.
all skills have a risk of not being used so that arguement is invalid.
no other path lets you perform a skill put in your pocket and use it later. so its not apples to apples.
what i could behind is the alchemy lab potions being picked from a larger list.
all skills have a risk of not being used so that arguement is invalid.
no other path lets you perform a skill put in your pocket and use it later. so its not apples to apples.
what i could behind is the alchemy lab potions being picked from a larger list.
Travis Cole
Jack of all trades specificlly states you cant buy them individually.you can buy them with jack if all trades. and you can buy the expansion skills.
I was including the potion/spell options form the expansion, doesnt mean the PC ends up with more than 16 potions/spells forever and ever.
.all skills have a risk of not being used so that arguement is invalid
True, but the other paths and disciplines have a massivly lower chance of that AND the chances of a full path/full discipline PC that isnt an alchemist, having his skills be useless after the first few hours of any event is zero. So its not invalid.
I know that not ever skill and ever path discipline will be useful in EVERY situation. But compared to an alchemist, sho is supposed to be adaptive by nature, the other skills sets leave him/her in the dust.
Aside from craftetsman thats true, but the skills the other paths have access to are have a much more significant inpact on any situatiion comparativly. A basic heal potion doesnt compare to use bow, use shield, scout, and other such skills. The ONLY basic potion that rates with the rest is "strength of the defender".no other path lets you perform a skill put in your pocket and use it later. so its not apples to apples.
SO yes they are "storable" like I posted earlier, but they are much weaker and stealable. The healers first aid or man at arms press cant be stolen. Thats part of why I think they need NOT be set in stone.
How about labs having a set list of recepies they can produce, and making labs NOT disintegrate after they are used. If an alchemist wants a bigger list of choices he has to collect labs with the recepies. This would also prevent the proliferation of every alchemist having ALL the recipies.what i could get behind is the alchemy lab potions being picked from a larger list.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
i see the flexibility coming from its one of the few paths/discipline that you pick what you get from then on. warrior, healer etc. thats all you get besides swap outs, with spells/potions you get to look over a list and pick what you think you want.
that said i like its current incarnation and would take this over the old system any day. i relise that people were suposed to have to take time and such to get more spells and potion, research and the like, quest, etc. but 1 discipline(s) that have 30+ options available to them? no. and i have seen the old master lists and that number is close
that said i like its current incarnation and would take this over the old system any day. i relise that people were suposed to have to take time and such to get more spells and potion, research and the like, quest, etc. but 1 discipline(s) that have 30+ options available to them? no. and i have seen the old master lists and that number is close
If it storms or snows, or the sun smiles on us. The day burning hot, or ice cold of night. Dusty are our faces, but joyful are our minds! - Panzerlied
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Brian: Do not respond, quote, argue, debate, or try to start a conversation about anything I say or post, directly or indirectly, specifically or implicitly. At the very least I will consider it stalking, and going further consider it harassing, belittling, demeaning, mocking, or insulting. I will immediately report it as such and push to request that your forum privileges be at least suspended or terminated, and going further request your LARP attendance privileges be suspended or terminated as per the Final Haven Code of Conduct. this is your notice and warning.
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If you have an opinion on something I say, or a particular topic, but would prefer to keep your opinion private (or complain) then CLICK HERE! to send a private message to GM-Mike the head GM and let him know.