hypothetical Shield Question

Kiel Reid · Post by **Kiel Reid** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:41 pm

Same here. I like the idea of allowing shield bashing from a player stand point because it is awesome....but the rational part of my brain just doesn't feel it would work.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:03 pm

Adding actual in-damage with shields (other than press) does this: all the shields end up being super-light so they are as fast as possible, and effectively become super-wide super-effective swords.

That isnt something adding damage would do, all it would take is someone finding a thick and sturdy plastic they can cut to any shape and have the tools and most will switch to a ligfhter shield just for comfort.

All in all I am for a shield bashing skill, like the double press bonus being a press and a 1 crush damage, but TOTALY against actual stikes with a shield phys rep. Even with all foam shields I think LARPers tend to NOT have the combat skills to make it safe enough as a rule.

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:13 pm

actually instead of having double press and gaining benefit from the shield.. how about if you have the Use Shield skill twice (since I have been asked before if this does anything) it would grant you the ability to Resist Press defensively (Which could be used in the current ruleset with no tweaks) - or Allow the Use of a full Press skill ( ala Shield bash) by lightly tapping a character with your shield - this would require some re-doing of the shield construction rules at least.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:30 pm

Kanar allows shield bashing, and it's an awesome addition.

To balance it, though, Kanar made it so magic surged through shields, so no one person could call damage without taking any. A shield, in kanar, was a giant target for spellcasters.

Also, Kanar is a much more physical game than FH.

I like the idea.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:51 pm

actually instead of having double press and gaining benefit from the shield.. how about if you have the Use Shield skill twice (since I have been asked before if this does anything) it would grant you the ability to Resist Press defensively (Which could be used in the current ruleset with no tweaks) - or Allow the Use of a full Press skill ( ala Shield bash) by lightly tapping a character with your shield - this would require some re-doing of the shield construction rules at least.

Also a fair use of a double skill, but i think its better served my just giving it the offensive damage since press already can be used to resist press.

I am very aginst actual shield stikes, the skill can be announced by a loud stomp of the foot with the shield directed at the target and a loud" BASH" call. Contact avoided that way.

Salvatore_Tenhammers · Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:50 pm

In 8years of playing in a LARP that allowed shield bashing, there was never an injury as the result of doing it.

Shields needed to consist of a plastic core (round saucer sleds being the most common), large quantities of carpet padding and pvc pipe padding, and duct tape.

A good shield weight about 2-3 lbs and could be used to whop freely.

Those shields had more padding then about 3/4's of the current home-made swords used by players currently.

The argument that shields would become just huge swords is flawed. Properly used a shield is more defensive than a sword. As things currently stand with all the people using a weapon in their off-hand, they use that sword more like a skinny shield. (Actually most people who fight two stick have this tendency to just flail in front of themselves, rabidly saying "ONE" and hoping they hit).

I've got nothing against safety, but it seems that at the current rate of "Safety first", the game may devolve into using rock/paper/scissors(/lizard) for combat.

Remember the first two letters in LARP stand for Live Action.

Garritt · Post by **Garritt** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:41 am

I'm a firm believer that the 'Safety First' theory should apply to anything that could injure another person. Self-risk should be fine, as we all sign a waiver. There's been plenty of times I wished I could dive across a table to retreat from (or intercept) and NPC, or fight on uneven surfaces (or from table-tops) to gain the high ground.

I know Dani's been hit once with the edge of a FH-legal shield to the face, and it put her out of combat for the scene. Those are the types of people the rules have to take into account, not the big guys. Matt could break me with a full-contact shield bash.

Contact shields would have to be more heavily padded than we have now as legal. Especially since a layer of pipe foam is WAY too thin for the edge of a shield. My small shield is contact-legal at other LARPS, and has three layers of camping mat foam on all surfaces, not a measly 5/8" on the edge.

Even non-contact damage is too much for a shield to be able to do at a LARP, unless there is something more we can do back to the shield bearer that balance with "Use Shield"- a 1st level skill. In real life, the only balance to a shield bash is being able to drive the shield back into the user's face or body to upset them, and that's a slippery slope.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:06 pm

In real life, the only balance to a shield bash is being able to drive the shield back into the user's face or body to upset them, and that's a slippery slope

There is alot more than can be done with a shield in RL than try to shove it into the users face since that...rally doesnt work.

Even non-contact damage is too much for a shield to be able to do at a LARP, unless there is something more we can do back to the shield bearer that balance with "Use Shield"- a 1st level skill.

The suggestion I made was damage with a shield if you had use shield TWICE, which is at least equal to a level twp or three discipline skill.

... as for things that can be done to a shield, there are already several in the rules:
Shatter
Disarm
Surge effects like sleep
Press
Crush
Lash attacks

Post by **GM_Chris** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:16 pm

A couple points

1) I hate rock paper, scissors
2) There are people who are talking a lot about "safty" in terms of shield bashing, yet I don't think any of you have been to a LARP which allows it. The LARPs which do allow it do not have injuries as a result of shield bashing.
3)

I know Dani's been hit once with the edge of a FH-legal shield to the face, and it put her out of combat for the scene. Those are the types of people the rules have to take into account, not the big guys. Matt could break me with a full-contact shield bash.

You know if we used the specs for a shield bashing shield then she probably would not have been hurt at all as it would have felt like getting it with a pillow to the face. I see this as a "pro" shield bashing argument.[/quote]

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:23 pm

1) I hate rock paper, scissors

What about Crinos form?
*stands with claw shaped hands held straight overhead*

2) There are people who are talking a lot about "safty" in terms of shield bashing, yet I don't think any of you have been to a LARP which allows it. The LARPs which do allow it do not have injuries as a result of shield bashing.

I have and they do have injuries, just not from the big shield shaped pillows they use. Its from exuberance and lack of control and lack of environmental awareness.... people adding an un-needed push with the bash and shoving people over, people bashing so hard in the thrall of combat that the foam doesnt toally deaden the impact of a fist, or shoving someone back lightly over..stuff...fallen PCs, tree stumps, chairs.

All the same stuff that COULD happen at a NON shield bashing LARP. I just think that if there can be a mechanic that does the same, without the need for contact, thats the better route to go.

Fionna · Post by **Fionna** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:31 am

Quote:
I know Dani's been hit once with the edge of a FH-legal shield to the face, and it put her out of combat for the scene. Those are the types of people the rules have to take into account, not the big guys. Matt could break me with a full-contact shield bash.

You know if we used the specs for a shield bashing shield then she probably would not have been hurt at all as it would have felt like getting it with a pillow to the face. I see this as a "pro" shield bashing argument.

As the one who's been hit in the face, I'll speak for myself.

1. We own a shield that is legal in Belagarth which allows shield bashing. Being hit with it in the face is not like being hit with a pillow. They are still objects with a stiff core being thrust into another person's face.

2. CJ participated in Belagarth before Final Haven. I watched him come home (from one day of practice) so sore he could barely move. Injuries can and do occur as a result of shield bashing, period.

3. As one of the "weak women" that participates, I would hate to see this occur. There are many that come to LARP for things other than the combat, myself included. Adding something like shield bashing would alienate them, than it would gain in realism positives.

4. Finally, as a person certified in first aid where safety is my number one priority, this just sounds unnecessarily dangerous. This sounds like a great way to, even accidentally, break noses, smash fingers, and so on.

I would be all for say getting press if you have use shield twice, or something but not actual contact with the shield.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:29 am

3. As one of the "weak women" that participates

did someone actualy use that term?

Post by **GM_Chris** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:53 am

lol yeah didnt know Dani was weak...

Anyways, Do you think shield bashing would have more success in a LARP that required a certain level of armor as in SCA (I know SCA isnt a LARP). What if you had a LARP that used Kings rules or very little soak?

Personally I tend to like more physicality when I fight. There have been a couple instances at FH where I was fighting a person and that person cried foul on something that was really not that bad.

Fionna · Post by **Fionna** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:51 am

No, no one used the term "weak woman", I did. I don't really like getting hit a lot. That's why I don't play a warrior. But I know I'm not the only one. Now, moving on...

Chris, no SCA is not a LARP. SCA is designed for kings rules fighting. Kings Rules are much different than the tap fighting we do. I've heard on this already we are forgetting that the Live Action part of LARP, but what about the ROLE PLAYING part of LARP. Just because we can, does not necessarily mean we should.

And Chris, there is a lot more to physically fighting than hurting people. I'm afraid that is all shield bashing would become.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:22 pm

Anyways, Do you think shield bashing would have more success in a LARP that required a certain level of armor as in SCA

As I understand it you can shield swat in SCA combat.

I guess my question has to be Chris....why does it seem that your trying to push for the bash at FH/WH?