Things that make you go ...hhhmmmmmmm....

[Wyrmwrath]

Ovak Stonecrusher

As for research before reading/writing, it was conceived differently than how you are conceiving it. In our minds there were lots of ways to do research. Some may research this through visions/hallucinations, others as contacts, others as animals, etc. Reading may be one specific way of researching but it is not the only one and thus in our minds not at all required.

I didnt have a different concept of it, I actualy considered all those sources. Problem is, all that would have to be written down and recorded because its not all done seconds before the events, so a sage remembering 1 to 5 months worth of data seems a huge stretch. Also, I would think a sage would have to use several of those methods since no one source would be able to answer all thier questions. Just seems they would have to resort to written works and recording at some point.

Zeira

It does not say that Single Weapon Specialization is exclusive to melee weapons. If that is the intention it needs to be noted accordingly.

while true it doesnt use the word MELEE, it does say swing. That implies melee since you dont swing a bow/crossbow/throwing weapon.

[GM-Mike]

So you're saying that you can suspend disbelief around fighitng goblins and dragons and around encountering werewolves and vampires, around getting questions answered through eating the brains of the dead, around casting great spells and around people your size playing dwarves, but the very idea of a sage remembering a bunch of stuff is simply too much for you to handle?

[Wyrmwrath]

That would depend on the ammount of stuff that "a bunch" implies. Just because its fantasy doesnt mean it should make no sense whatsoever. A sage is a researcher, not a fleshy encyclopedia Britanica.
I think it would be a stretch to cover the info gained from one summer event to the next, let alone info gained over winter break.
However, we arent even talking about the sage path characters; since they get read and right in the same basic path lump (although it still isnt logical to get read and write after), we are speaking of the non sages that may or may not be able to read, that take basic research. I dont see an orc warrior with basic research being able to retain anywhere near a character that is a sage path. They should need read and write.

[GM-Mike]

Well that brings up the second reason it is the way it is. There was a time when a craftsman and an arcane and an alchemist could research their own stuff. Since that seemed to chode out the sage to a small degree and because we got a million research requests each event, we decided to remove that ability from being inherent to those disciplines and require the research skill. It was thus placed first so that non-sages could pick it up relatively inexpensively. Of course we've kind of gone away researching spells and whatnot but that was the original rationale.

[Wyrmwrath]

Look, if you dont want to tell me the REAL reason there is no reason for such transparent deceptions....

Well I get the reason that research is forst for non sages to buy, it just offended my OCD sense of order to be able to do that without the ability to read first. In order to compensate me for my pain and suffering from your decision...can I have a pony in game?

Phil, I appreciate the feedback. I hope you will not be offended if I redirect some of those to the FH guys since the current WH no Brian embargo prevents me asking a WH game in game.

OK FH GMs...
1) Can you upgrade a class 2 container to a wheel barrel AFTER the class 2 is finished? And can you RP it NOT being an actual wheelbarrel?
Also does it still have an upkeep or was that removed?

3) Would a PC be allowed to spend 10 CP to get only one language with the sage skill? YEs I am expecting a no answer...but nothing ventured nothing gained.

4) Is the rule stating that tube foam weapons need to have 5/8" thick padding just a hold over form CARPS like some of the other weapon color and construction rules?

5) Can I get a yes or no on wether ambidex is sufficient to upgrade drunken Brawl?

[GM-Phil]

Brian - I was reading Dwarf again and I think I know what is up here -

With Dwarf - if you have Drunken Brawling, Ambidexterity, and Iron Fists - Both of your fist physreps can be Small size -

With Ambidexterity twice - it says you may have 1 Tiny and 1 Small fist physrep.. not both.

[Wyrmwrath]

Right I did see that they get one fist and one small weapon with ambidex twice; but here are the issues...

Page 79 says fists are tiny ... but there is no tiny catagory on the weapon size chart just small, short, long, hand & 1/2, and 2 handed.

Drunken Brawl says the PC can swing and block with a single fist, and then says the phys reps (plural) become small size with ambidex and iron fist

Ambidex says the PC can swing two fists, if bought twice the fists are small size (implying they start at the non existant tiny size)

Iron fist says the PC can now block with the ambidex fists, and if bought twice there is a knockout component added

SOOOO....
What are the dimentions for a tiny weapon?

Does drunken brawl give a PC one or two fists, and are they able to block with the fist(s) the skill provides like basic ambidex fists (if yes it makes requiring iron fists pointless, unless having all three is like having ambidex and iron fists twice)?

If Drunken Brawl provides only one fist, does ambidex increase that to two AND increase thier size to small? If so then iron fist is again pointless since drunken brawl already allows blocking. The only advantage to buying iron fists would be getting the knockout component.

[Marcus]

That would depend on the ammount of stuff that "a bunch" implies. Just because its fantasy doesnt mean it should make no sense whatsoever. A sage is a researcher, not a fleshy encyclopedia Britanica.
I think it would be a stretch to cover the info gained from one summer event to the next, let alone info gained over winter break.
However, we arent even talking about the sage path characters; since they get read and right in the same basic path lump (although it still isnt logical to get read and write after), we are speaking of the non sages that may or may not be able to read, that take basic research. I dont see an orc warrior with basic research being able to retain anywhere near a character that is a sage path. They should need read and write.

So savage character's can't research things unless they can read? I would fight that to the very end if it were forced upon me. What if the whole point of my character is that he's a genius with a huge memory for information but he can't read a single letter because he was raised in the slums, or his tribe believes in history passed down orally, and they are forced to memorize things until they get them perfect so no information is lost?

Then I would have a book of knowledge I found out through research (consulting the spirits of the dead, talking to animals, etc.) that is "out of game". It simply makes up for the fact that a lot of times I (C.J.) can't remember a damn thing, and so I need a crutch to play that facet of my character.

Suspension of disbelief. If you think the character you are playing should be information-dumb, that's a personal roleplaying choice.

SOOOO....
What are the dimentions for a tiny weapon?

Min Length: 12"
Max Length: 18"
Min Core Dia: 1/2"
Padding Thickness: 5/8

4) Is the rule stating that tube foam weapons need to have 5/8" thick padding just a hold over form CARPS like some of the other weapon color and construction rules?

Not that I know of. All my weapons follow that rule, even the flat camping mat foam ones. If I were a weapons marshal, I would not allow any that didn't apply.

I have seen several weapons throughout the years that only use the 3/8 inch foam tubing (black stuff), rather than the tan (legal) stuff.

[Wyrmwrath]

So savage character's can't research things unless they can read?

Actually it would mean NO PC, despite their lifestyle can research with out read write in a language, since it is possible that the player of a PC of another lifestyle could CHOSE to be illiterate (god I hope I spelled that right)

What if the whole point of my character is that he's a genius with a huge memory for information but he can't read a single letter because he was raised in the slums

I would say that PC history falls into the same category that the GMs should not allow, just as if the PC had written he was the king of the entire game world, or was the most powerful demon ruler, or could kill other PCs with his gaze by a skill he learned from a hidden monastery. Just because a player WANTS his history to be a certain way...doesn't mean he or she should always get it that way. I would say design a better and less flawed PC concept.

or his tribe believes in history passed down orally, and they are forced to memorize things until they get them perfect so no information is lost?

...just like the dwarves are now...I would say then your PC cant do research unless he has an entire clan (hundreds of NPCs) to do the research with, just like the dwarven kingdom currently does...in game...since they have no written language.

Suspension of disbelief.

This does not mean acceptance of the ludicrous...just allows for the presence of magical things, which is in essence, just another form of physics like powers. If you want your PC not to rely on in game actual written documents, get the GMs to approve a glowing crystal he stores his encyclopedia in and his read and write skill is only good for accessing the info in that item. Means no one else can access it unless they have the item and research its " language" and that he cant read the "beware of poisoned spiked pit trap here" sign. Suspension of disbelief!

If you think the character you are playing should be information-dumb, that's a personal role playing choice.

I agree. but choosing to make them NOT info dumb doesn't mean they are Ultron or Brianiac or Data...


Actually those are the dimensions for a small weapon. If you read the rules carefully it implies there is a category even smaller that fists fit into. The dimensions there are just labeled wrong.

[Marcus]

What if the whole point of my character is that he's a genius with a huge memory for information but he can't read a single letter because he was raised in the slums

I would say that PC history falls into the same category that the GMs should not allow, just as if the PC had written he was the king of the entire game world, or was the most powerful demon ruler, or could kill other PCs with his gaze by a skill he learned from a hidden monastery. Just because a player WANTS his history to be a certain way...doesn't mean he or she should always get it that way. I would say design a better and less flawed PC concept.

Except unlike the more nebulous background qualities the particular quality I mentioned would not gain the PC anything upon coming into the game, and also be represented with a legally bought in-game and quantifiable skill. Having a spirit ancestor or a knowledge spirit locked inside a skull tell me a sword is in a certain place is the same result as reading it in a book in the Academy.

[Malachi]

You don't need to be able to read or write to do research. Field work, interviews, and asking general questions of those around cover it.

[Wyrmwrath]

Except unlike the more nebulous background qualities the particular quality I mentioned would not gain the PC anything upon coming into the game, and also be represented with a legally bought in-game and quantifiable skill. Having a spirit ancestor or a knowledge spirit locked inside a skull tell me a sword is in a certain place is the same result as reading it in a book in the Academy.

It would indeed give that PC advantages, even is they are small ones. If the plot team (or a sinister player trying to hamper research) has the PCs in a place where one PC cant get to his books to research, but you can access your spirit guide means you would have access the other would not. Just one example.
If you state that your PC can do the research and remember it all, why cant he now remember the conversation your PC and another PC had, (because you the player don't remember) why can he not recall the 30 digit code for the magic because you the player left your OOG notebook under your pillow.
Even though I get Mikes second reason, I still contend that not having read and write as a requirement, even if its RPed differently form PC to PC (like the magic 8 ball crystal storage), implies the PC can accurately recall weeks or research word for word; and that's just silly.

Its also irrelevant what advantages the background gives or doesn't give. If its inconsistent with game world logic and so far fetched as to be ludicrous, it can easily hamper the RP immersion of other players.

Malachi

You don't need to be able to read or write to do research. Field work, interviews, and asking general questions of those around cover it.

Correct, but you DO need to (or SHOULD need to ...is my original point) be able to record that info since the research take place over 1 to 6 months between events. To assume that could all be remembered without a skill like eidetic memory (which could be how your PC roleplays read and write) is just silly.

Also, field work will NOT always get a researcher the answers they need, especially in the setting this skill is used. Some times you need an old book.

[Malachi]

Out of curiosity, do you think a warrior can't fight when he doesn't have any armor on? Because it's the same situation. Just like a Rogue doesn't need lock picks in order to pick a lock, and healers don't need medical supplies in order to heal anyone. Sure, there are items that augment these skills, but they are absolutely not necessary in this setting.

And if you're arguing for realism, remember that we fight skeletons and dragons, and people can tear energy from the fabric of reality and hit other people with it. Does the game need some realism? Absolutely, but there's no need to sweat the small stuff. It's a game, have fun with it.

[Wyrmwrath]

Out of curiosity, do you think a warrior can't fight when he doesn't have any armor on? Because it's the same situation.

I am glad you made that analogy, because its perfect. Yes they can fight, BUT... they will not survive long term without it. in the same manner a researcher might be able to get some info they are seeking, but they will NOT be able to remember it accurately for months at a time (in between events).

Keep in mind I am not really talking about sage path PCs; they automatically get read and write and are trained in academics fully. I am speaking to non sage PCs...including mine...that have research. Its like asking a mechanic to research his lineage and remember it for the reunion 5 months later and not write it down.

Just like a Rogue doesn't need lock picks in order to pick a lock

Actually anyone picking a lock needs lock pics...even if they are improvised, just ask a lock smith.

and healers don't need medical supplies in order to heal anyone.

This isn't even the same situation since the game is in a world where magic works. If we are talking no magics, then they do in fact need physical items.
The research skill isn't magic, its research which requires recording the information found or remembering it. Remembering it for weeks and months is silly to think possible.

And if you're arguing for realism, remember that we fight skeletons and dragons, and people can tear energy from the fabric of reality and hit other people with it

I see no supporting logic that says just because the game world has a different ecology and physics that nothing needs to make sense because we can just lazily say "oh its magic". Even in a world where magic WAS real there would be "laws of physics" that governed how things functioned.

Does the game need some realism? Absolutely, but there's no need to

sweat the small stuff. It's a game, have fun with it.

See the details are what make the game...and what make the game fun, because they make it seem more real and immersive. To have a GREAT LARP...you HAVE to sweat the small stuff: otherwise it always seems half ass.

[Malachi]

You forgot to use this line:

...Sure, there are items that augment these skills, but they are absolutely not necessary in this setting.

Everything I had posted was in context to this game, not the real world.

Lets say for a minute that, for the purposes of this game you are correct, and the Research skill required Read/Write in order to work. If that were the case, the character attempting to use Research would have to have the Read/Write skill for every in-game language that has an alphabet in order to work at full capacity. And if you were to go this in-depth for just this single skill, in order to preserve balance, you would have to apply pre-requisite skills for the majority of the other skills in the game. By the time it was done, the rulebook would be a set of encyclopedias.

I guess the bottom line is that, in this game, as the rules currently stand, you are not required to have the Read/Write skill in order to use the Research skill. If you think that this is not real or logical enough for you, feel free to purchase Read/Write as many times as you are able to.

Depending on your lifestyle, these are the Paths and Disciplines that grant Read/Write:

Sage - (Must purchase Research first) 2 Languages
Diplomat [C,P] 1st Level - 2 Languages

You may also take Read/Write as a Perk ONE time, granting one additional language. When creating your character, you have the option of learning up to 2 additional languages as well.