The great Armor debate--Real-fake

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The great Armor debate--Real-fake

Post by GM_Chris »

Ok I didnt want to muddy the other post too much so thought I would start a new one specifically discussing what constitutes armor catagories

Here is what I put forth for criteria

1) Must looks like what it is suppose to look like
2) Must weigh about what it should weigh
3) Must encomber how it should encomber


Each criteria you have earns you 1 possible armor catagory. So lets say you have a really good looking plate armor but it only passes criteria 1 and 3 (its lite because it is plastic) this it can only count as medium armor.


Now in the other thread we are discussing rules for: "What is I want my medium armor to be heavy when it only counts as medium"

I believe for costs sake we want to allow mr medium to have heavy if he wants therefore we discuss what "penalty" he/she gets for calling it heavy. If you hate the word penalty then what bonus should the person get for actually fitting into their catagory.
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Post by GM_Chris »

Fiona Said:

Yes Chris, I realize that plastic is not as heavy as steel. That was not my point, but I think you got my point.

I think if it looks the part, it is the part. If by looking at it I can tell its supposed to be heavy armor, it should work.

I like an incentive for properly phys repping armor. I would also like to see it so that players aren't left guessing what type of armor you have on. I should be able to tell, within one category, what type of armor you are wearing. A medium phys rep could count as heavy, but if you're wearing a heavy one you get some sort of incentive (aka an extra LP as was brought up earlier and was done at WH this weekend, or something like that)
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Post by cole45 »

i personally like the "armor fee" where you can buy up your armor type. in this case, everyone wins. those who can not afford the out of game cost, can pay an IN game one to have better soak. and remember the difference medium and heavy is 4 soak.

I do like the idea of resist shatter for real armor, but fake armor that looks good should be able to get those stuoid 4 armor points too.
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Post by GM_Chris »

So here are the different views.

1 view is: if it looks the part then it should count and the other is what I have. Anyone else have ideas?


To clarify: Fiona, if I went to the holloween store and bought that dollar plastic costume armor stuff that ties together with string that should count as heavy armor yielding me 12 CR, correct? In addition that holloween armor and the realstuff would both get 12 cr, but you advocate that the real plate get some additional bonus?
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Post by Phinkis »

I also like the idea of the real stuff having resist shatter. Another idea is that it could count as quality without any additional cost.
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Post by Fionna »

No Chris, the cheap, plastic, Halloween stuff would not constitute look the part.

Thick plastic that's painted to look like metal, would look the part, vinyl that looks like leather would look the part. It needs to look good!

I would akin looking good to a t-shirt vs a boatman's shirt. One will work, kind of, but only one really looks good. Both are relatively easy to get.

And no, I was not advocating that if you wear the heavier, real stuff you get extra. Only if you want to count something that looks lighter as heavier, do you lose the benefit of real armor. Basically if it looks good, you get the bonus of representative armor.

I have been told time and time again, those of us who put in the time to making our characters authentic do so because we LOVE our characters and for the ourselves. I get no bonus for tying myself into a bodice, wearing three skirts, spending time braiding my hair, and putting money into my jewelry. I do so because I want to. Just as those who wear real plate and chain maile do so because they want to.
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Post by Malachi »

Personally, though I like the look of real armor, I don't believe that people who use fake armor should be penalized at all, so long as it looks acceptable. That is not to say that I believe people who wear real armor shouldn't get a bonus. The bottom line for me is that I make just over minimum wage and I'm a physically large person. In order for me to get real armor, chances are it would have to be special order, adding another cost on top of just purchasing the armor itself. I do still pay my $25 an event to have access to all the rules in the book, however.

My proposal is that people who phys-rep their armor (not just a shirt, an actual attempt at armor) should get all the armor points for whatever they classify the armor as. People who have the want and the funds to purchase and wear real armor gain one extra armor point per location (real full plate would give you 4 per location for regular armor, and 5 per location for quality). These extra points cannot take the characters soak over the hard cap, and on the highest end, they have 4-8 extra armor points.

This would allow those players who simply cannot afford real armor to be able to play characters in heavier armor, and players who can shell out the hundreds of dollars for real armor can get something to make them feel acknowledged.
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Post by Fionna »

In no way did I say that those who could not afford real armor would be penalized. I just said it needs to look the part.

CJ and I have made almost all of the armor we wear. My light armor was probably less than $20. CJ's chain maile cost him about the same to produce, it just took time. Creating armor that looks good does not necessarily need to cost money. It just takes time and creativity. Casey's chain maile, which is made out of key chain rings, looks good but was relatively inexpensive to create. It was probably easier to make than the real thing.

This is why I advocate for the "if it looks good, it counts". It doesn't necessarily cost more money, just more EFFORT![/b]
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Post by GM_Chris »

I have been told time and time again, those of us who put in the time to making our characters authentic do so because we LOVE our characters and for the ourselves. I get no bonus for tying myself into a bodice, wearing three skirts, spending time braiding my hair, and putting money into my jewelry. I do so because I want to. Just as those who wear real plate and chain maile do so because they want to
My brain has a hard time with this, it is the same rationel people use to under pay teachers, policemen, and firemen..you know you shouldnt be doing it for the pay..bah


What if light could only yield you 2 AP's medium 4, and heavy 6 and then if you have real it is plus 1 that way we are not penalizing anyone we are just giving out bonuses. :)
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Post by Atrum Draconus »

I like the shatter idea, people wearing real armor should get some bonus just like everyone who wears a decent costume gets a bonus. It's not a penalty for not making minimum requirements it's a bonus for exceeding minimum requirements. Just like all the stuff people put into their costumes makes immersion in the environment easier so does more real looking armor.

My proposal would be like Chris's, if you have 2 of those you don't pay upkeep if you have all 3 you get a resist shatter for each location. So Doug in his full plate with helm would get 4 resist shatters. Anyone who disagrees should first put a small child (approx 40 lbs) over their shoulders and spend an entire day, let alone a weekend walking around like that to represent what real chain feels like or strap an extra 10-15 lbs to both their chest and back and an extra 5-7 lbs to each leg and arm. That would represent the most expensive and lighter plate out there.

I don't think you should be able to wear thin leather, or a trench coat and call it heavy armor.
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Post by cole45 »

i move for child armor. it gives you five soak per location.
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Post by GM_Chris »

LOl 1 kid on each leg 1 on each arm and 1 on the fron and 1 on the back. HAHAA that would be funny..hmm didnt Brad as a bunny have this happen?
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Post by Dallid »

Erik summed it up nicely - I like the resist shatter bonus idea best.
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Post by GM_Chris »

Ok real versus fake.

First this is only to discuss real versus fake and what is the difference, the bonus for real versus fake is the other thread,

Kiel actually summed it up very well

Light – Thin Plastic, Foam, Padded Cloth, Sports Padding or Thin Leather (Suede)
Medium – Thick Plastic, Thick or Layered Leather, Micro or Aluminum Chain Maille or Studded Leather,
Heavy – Plate, Chain Maille (Mild or Stainless), Scale Armor, or Coat of Plates.

This list is very good, and I could also see layering as an option in order to meet the 3 criteria I have listed.
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Post by Kalphoenix »

Fionna wrote:I have been told time and time again, those of us who put in the time to making our characters authentic do so because we LOVE our characters and for the ourselves. I get no bonus for tying myself into a bodice, wearing three skirts, spending time braiding my hair, and putting money into my jewelry. I do so because I want to. Just as those who wear real plate and chain maile do so because they want to.
This. I hear all the "debate" about how people who wear armour should get some huge bonus in the form of LPs and armour points. Where are the LP and armour points or other bonuses for people who are dressing "in-period?"

Now, traditionally, we give players hero points for this kind of thing. I support THAT as part of the real armour reward. Even if it means a player is getting a hero point EVERY GAME for wearing real heavy.

I'd also be for giving people a free armour tag for real armour for that category. If there was a fear of cheesing, it could only be once per event, and you could only get a new tag at a new event if it was for a new character or if your armour had been destroyed (Not traded, not given away) at the previous one.

I'm all for limited shatter or damage resists.

I am, however, against +LP, +CR and +AR as bonuses for "real" armour.

The idea is to reward people who are going above and beyond. Not penalize people who are doing what they can come up with/contribute to this hobby. Giving someone an LP, CR or AR bonus for real armor IS a penalty to those without. More creative ideas are needed.

If minimal bonuses aren't "good enough" for someone wearing "real" armor then the option is to NOT wear it. NOT bitch because someone else isn't wearing what you feel they should be. Otherwise drop the pretense and just require players to wear real armour for said categories.

I personally feel the REAL armour is actually a hindrance to the game, only balanced by the fact that it "looks cool." It creates safety issues, such as being bashed into by someone falling or walking and not being able to get out of the way in time. I can't count the number of times I've been backed into and/or stepped on. When someone is in real armour, it takes them longer to realize you are there (because it fucks with their spatial awareness) and it hurts a hell of a lot more too. Also, my other bitch is with taking hits. I don't think the folks in real armour are cheesing, but it's a hell of a lot harder to count hits you take from a foam weapon to spots covered by real armour that you don't feel. Hell, people wearing CLOTHES run into this issue. It's a lot easier to pretend something you don't exactly SEE hit you didn't hit you. Also, I've seen "real armour" with sharp and dangerous edges, and even without that hazard, weapons don't hold up as well against them and live shorter and take more damage. So, "Real armour" is not the honeymoon optimum some people seem to think it is.

If it's not clear from my post, I'm in support of resist shatter as a bonus. I am also in favor of hero point rewards. I am even a fan of reduced/eliminated in-game costs. I am a staunch opponent of a flat additional number soak and will take every opportunity to remind longtime rules folks about how often things are turned down in the rule props because they would create additional number soak.
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