Turtling Rule

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:26 pm

Breaking temp breaks emersion. Kills the scene.

This is what I'm considering minor safety vilotions
Machine gunning
Steping to close to a person but not touching them
Hitting a person's foot
getting hit in the head with a packet
etc..

Major vilotions that need to be called on right than and there
Physical contact with another player while fighting
Swinging way to hard
Pushing or shoving people
People very unsafely with a shield, to the point they put other folks in danager. Fighting when kneeling, etc...
Anything that could really hurt a person.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:26 pm

i guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I would call all of those if they keep happening.

If you expect people to take the damage from illegal hits, you are reward bad behavior. By making them not count, the fighters HAVE to TRY to hit LEGAL ONLY targets. anything less and you encourage them to be dangerous.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:10 pm

Brian my only point on the universal max size thing was that no one would ever need to check a shields size before they used the phys rep. I've picked up shield phys reps and used them before and I've never knelt down and checked the sizing because that never comes to mind when you are in a battle. Sizes would only be checked when the new shield was brought into game, after that it never needs to be checked by anyone ever again for size.

Kalphoenix · Post by **Kalphoenix** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:29 pm

General Maximus wrote:Breaking temp breaks emersion. Kills the scene.

I too will have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a minor violation and I don't feel that a "minor" rule/safety call out ruins the game.

If someone is even making what you consider "minor" safety violations, they can easily ramp up to more dangerous behavior. Combat is the one place I consider immersion to be moot, because people can REALLY be hurt and because you can't just do anything you want. Because of the nature of combat, a measure of actual reality HAS to stay in play. If people are totally "into" the action and fully immersed, then they are far more likely to perform illegal actions than if they are brought out of it once in awhile with reminders to remember that it is a game with real people.

And if I don't call things as I see them, you have no idea what I am talking about when I bring it up later because you were "immersed" in the combat. Also, there may be other people who feel the same way and don't say anything and SHOULD.

Thanks for the civil discussion, all.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:25 pm

I understood that BA. In some combats your shield gets blasted or you need one and your PC doesnt normally use one, it happens. But voting FOR uniform size for sucj an uncommon situation means bigger player(those tall and...ahem...fluffy) are now at a disadvantage for no good reason. Most players who take the time to hone thier LARP fighting skill even a tad will be able to " eye up" an improvised shield, and in agregious cases (pentag/Brad grabbimg mine or Taki's) it will be obvious and we can boil them in root beer and strap em to a merry go round and pelt them with deviled eggs!

.....sorry got lost in a personal place there....just ignore that.

celegar · Post by **celegar** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:00 pm

Aurora wrote:Problem is for me, I'm not good at making shields. So I guess if mine becomes illegal I'll just having to see who will make me a shield similar to the one I have now but designed with all the new specs if it comes down to that.

I was just putting it out there for sometimes it's not totally easy for some people to come up with the money to get the new items and some of us just don't have either the time or money to make new items. It's the only reason I put it out there.

i can dag safe your shield super quick at the next event i attend(wh or fh, preferably WH), wont even take an hour and will cost about 15$ in materials.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:35 pm

Wow..cool just send me a quick PM as either Aurora or Fayte to remind me.

-Julie

Haku · Post by **Haku** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:19 am

OK, I just started reading this thread, but I guess my question would be, what new changes are being proposed here? Smaller shield sizes? Complete foam construction? Not to toot my own horn, and I know I carry one of the bigger shields on the field, but I've never been hit in the head, I've never been called on turtle-ing, and I've never hit anybody else with my shield. Keep in mind this is mere speculation, but it sounds as if safe shield bearers are being chastised for the unsafe ones running around.... I'm a huge proponent of training new people and refreshing older players on safe combat, but if I know how, and have demonstrated in the past, that a shield is safe in my hands, why do I need to trim it down and repad it? Don't get me wrong, if it came down from on high (the GM's ruled) then I wouldn't have a problem, but this thread is almost making me feel obligated to either make a new shield, or just ditch it...

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:40 am

I'd think you should trim your shield down if it can simultaniously hide every legal hit zone on your body from a single opponent. That forces unsafe combat.

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:27 pm

Hmm, You bring up an interesting point Doug.

How much protection should a shield give for Larp combat?
75%, 50%, etc...

I believe the current rules would allow for about 75% coverage of the leagal hit areas.

But there is a fine line between making the shields to small to be effective. I have found that smaller shields are much easier to bypass and it ends up that a different fighting style is better (2 weapons, 2 handed long sword, etc..)

Another question, are the shields people are using in spec? If they are not, than yes they need to be trimmed down or the person who is using them needs to grow

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:13 pm

(ignoring the entireity of this whole topic for the most part... may post eventually.)

Just some notes for the previous couple posts.

Shield size actually has somewhat of an inverse bearing on safety when held within reasonable sizes. Bigger shield = safer for all. Why? Well, let me explain!

We'll begin with two keywords: Active blocking and passive blocking. Active blocking is when you must physically move the shield around to block incoming objects. Passive is when you just basically block off a portion of you body making you effecitvely a smaller target.

Now, the smaller a shield gets, the higher the percentage of active blocking. This leads to Mike getting bloody noses and splinters.

In short, you want your shield size to be large enough to minimize the amount of active blocking, but not create the problem of someone being nigh unhittable. Also, the further a shield is away from you, the more coverage you gain from it (ie center grip is far more powerful in larp combat if used properly). This should also be taken into consideration when developing max sizes.

Altearez · Post by **Altearez** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:41 pm

holy crap...... 8 PAGES.

ok here it goes.

1.sorry ti anyone I have personally injured or pissed off with my oversize shield, TELL ME PLEASE!!!!

2.My shield fighting style is 3 point system, it consists of three movements
RIGHT LEFT DOWN thats all but the problem is is my shield is at my eye level almost all the time, this centers my shield keeping me prepared for an attack from any direction.

scenario:(I'm Left handed.) Zombie walks up to Altearez, Altearez has a longsword in his left a shield in his right the zombie attacks Altearez's right shoulder, he slightly lifts the shield up to the right covering the shoulder, then he attacks the Zombies Left Leg because its completely vulnerable.

is this considered turtling?????

3.another thing, IF YOU PRESS ME DOWN I'M GONNA HIT YOUR LEGS AND THERE ISN'T A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO so don't get upset if i hit your legs when I'm pressed down.

4.I really don't see the problem, current rules are more than efficient on shield safety, If you bend twoard the corner of my shield and then try to hit my shoulder there is a possibility you will be hit.

SUMMARY: personally I believe that both shield users and shield not users are accountable for unsafe fighting, for example if you put your head in the path of a bullet you are most likely going to get hit in the head by the bullet. EVEN IF YOU HAVE A SHIELD MADE ENTIRELY FROM FOAM IF YOU GET HIT IN THE EYE BY A CORNER IT WILL HURT THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN CHANGE THAT accidents happen especially in an environment like this. BOTTOM LINE: There doesn't need to be a rule change this doesn't happen on a large enough scale to be unsafe and If 2-3 players are being unsafe call them on it don't change all the shield rules and make everyone else upset because a doucher like me goes for the ankles.

Post by **Zydana** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:00 pm

Hmm.. I think I read most of this thread.

My thoughts on shield size..

I do like that the current suggestions of shield size. I'm fine with the idea that your shield is made to fit YOU. That being said, perhaps we should try to use our brains (Umm... BRAINZZZZ!! *cough* okay, zombie moment). If your shield was made to fit you and you made it max size, perhaps you shouldn't lend it out.

Personally, I don't think I could even handle a shield that big. I think maybe one for me would be the size of just my torso.. groin to shoulder size. (Also, if you plan on letting people use your shields, don't make them the max size - duh.)

Also, I know like it might sound like a pain, but also, I'd like to suggest that a weapons marshal check EVERYONE'S gear at check in. That sword might of been fine to use when it was new three years ago, but after that much time of wear and tear, it just might now be not so safe.

Altearez · Post by **Altearez** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:19 pm

I ageree with checking weapon safety more often. I also like the Idea of like safe fighting turtorials, and I think a large part of the problem is cheese if we followed the rules that were in place better we wouldn't have a problem, so really whats needed is a heavy clarification.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:31 pm

Altearez wrote:IF YOU PRESS ME DOWN I'M GONNA HIT YOUR LEGS AND THERE ISN'T A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO so don't get upset if i hit your legs when I'm pressed down.

How does one press you down without touching you? Is there some spell I'm unaware of that does this and still lets you attack? I only know of one spell that could do this and it takes a counted action to get up.