Turtling Rule

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:14 pm

I think I have come up with some good wording, please disect

"A player is not allowed to swing 'under' their shield"

This wording would cover raising your shield above your head in order to swing under it.

Now a small shield I believe should be exempt from this rule as you cannot "turtle" behind small shields.

Thoughts?

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:24 pm

Can't bend your knees while using your shield, not even for a second. A bend of the knee is anything more than 45 degrees. It elimintes people from fighting from their knees as well which is another form of turteling.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:47 pm

why dont we also take all player skill out of fighting while were at it, and just do rock, paper, scissors, to see who wins?

what constitutes a small shield?
what constitutes under a shield?
what constitutes a 45' angle?

all i see is

"im not taking that you bent your knee more than 45'"

"your full of crap that was a 37' degree angle, you took that"

"nuh uh"

"yuh huh"

this is rediculous, if someone is fighting well with there shield, good for them, if its an NPC, get an empath to blow up the shield, dont come up with a whole new set of rules to fight over something thats not a problem, dont forget, you can use a shield too, and you can use it just like they do.

....in case it wasnt made clear im COMPLETLY against this!!!

Post by **GM-Taki** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:05 pm

Ark, I understand the desire to allow for a player's personal skill to shine through, but there are some tactics that, when combined with the rules of the game, make for either unsafe or unfair situations.

I don't know about Zeira's proposed knee rule, but we do need to prevent people from swinging blindly at another person's ankles while holding a shield overhead. The Turtle tactic that we're describing is not, by any means, a demonstration of fighting skill. It's just taking advantage of the safety rules to get in cheap shots. That's not fighting, and it's poor form all the way around.

I could get behind the "no swinging under shields" rule that Chris proposed, but I wonder if that's not going to lead to even more rules to clarify what that rule means.

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:16 pm

Not allowing someone to attack under their own shield sounds good. Doing so has got to be blocking much of your vision. However there are too many situations that come up in game where ther person who is sitting or kneeling gets attacked, so I don't see a knee bend rule working. There's also just all the dodging and weaving people do while fighting.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:20 pm

this would keep them from putting the shield up in your face, and then swinging at your feet.

make bucklers(which have a defined max size) immune to this rule.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:22 pm

then change it to cant put the shield over the head, there.

but to write up a whole how to use a shield and cant swing under it, then i will crawl on the ground to counter shields, not taking any damage because they cant swing under

turteling has been around and fine since carps, wich is over a decade, i think this is completly stupid, if someone is doing something thats unsafe, then the GM should tell them thats unsafe, this is overkill for something that is not a problem.

i cant express in words how rediculous i think this is, i have been away from the forums for a long time, but i will be here to fight this all the way.

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:29 pm

I have been thinking on some of the issues that are coming up. Here are my thoughts.

Safety Rules
1. Do not aim at people feet. You typical have to bend you head forward and it will get hit. Make a simple rule that any hits from ankle down does not count
2. You must be able to see hit. So your head must be above your shield at all times. Try not to throw your shield over your head. It cause you to lose where the enemy is. If you do this, do not swing your weapon.
3. Do not fight from the ground. You will be stepped on and will hit people in the wrong area. Try to only fight when standing up. This means no kneeling down and trying to hit a person. Always try to fight standing up.
4. If you die and fall to the ground in the middle of a battle please move to the side so you do not get stepped on. Or at least curle up into a ball if you happen to be in the middle of a battle. You will be stepped on. If no battle, do what ever!
5. When fighting with a shield your shin’s, head, and shoulder/s should be showing. If they aren’t you are turtling.
6. If you are standing in front of a person and can wrap around and hit them in the back, you are to close. You should try to keep 2feet distance between you and the enemy (Charging rules). The only way you should be able to hit a person in the back is from the back or if you and on their side. Never if you are in front of them.
7. When trusting with a weapon, never lock out your arm and keep a lose grip the weapon so it can slide in your grip. This prevents people from being hurt.

Machine Gunning needs to be identified much better. I can right now swing for damage 2-3 times a sec and move my arm 45 degrees or more per swing. People will call that machine gunning but it is not. It seems to be a very grey area and made many people unhappy during the mass battle. It all depends on your equipment and skill level. The 45 degree rule is way too vague and to hard to actually see in the middle of combat with a small light weapon in a skilled persons hand. Especially with a dark weapon at night.

Azra · Post by **Azra** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:35 pm

It's not a just matter that turtleing is "unsafe." It's the fact that turtleing is only possible because safety rules don't allow a way to counter it.

In the real lif, a warrior would not be able to turtle. They would get sparta-kicked. Since that move is not allowed in LARP, it is unfair to allow turtleing as their is no way for a player to counter it.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:36 pm

*sigh* i cannot belive this is happening, you know what fine, i dont even use a sheild, most of the time its NPC's, so im going to call it EVERYTIME i see it till people see how rediculous this is and it gets cut out.

on machine gunning i agree, a 45' angle is a flick of the rist with small weapons, and sounds like maichine gunning when its not, you just have to call slower, theres no mathamatical fix for this

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:47 pm

I just threw something I read from NERO about shields out there. I dont see how fight with a shield blocking you head is giving you an unfair advantage in combat.

Is it when people are bendin their waist forward 90 degrees and sticking their shield with their left and trying to hit you in the legs with their right?

When people fight like that you can't strike them because their shield is sticking out so far that if you tried to get close it would be considered charging. On top of that the shield user is blocking their own vision making their strikes inaccurate and unsafe. I have an idea.

Make people certify before they can use a shield.

I have been larping for like 3-4 years now and I can say with confidence I do not know how to safely use a shield. I would either hurt someone else or myself eventually. However, if someone took 15 Minutes and showed me how to properly use a shield I would have the building blocks to use one safely. And safety is goal #1. Turteling is unsafe for everyone. We should take the time and teach people to use a shield properly. It's not the new peoples fault if they were never actually taught how to use a shield properly. A rule does not teach people how to fight safely. It's up to us.

Rastlin · Post by **Rastlin** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:09 pm

This rule change will ruin the game. Ziera quit talking. i'v been larping for 13 years now, carps to present, and we never needed shield rules befor! this is rediculious, and i refuse to use any of the proposed rules!!!!!!! i kick ass with my shield cuz im a good fighter not cuz im cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is so stupid it makes me not want to play. some of you will say fine dont play, but do you really want people to quit playing? it seems like nobody has any fun at the larps any more. something needs to change, but its not shields. check them for size, but swinging under? i can do that without raiseing my shield or going down on a knee, and usually results in a solid leg or knee hit. besides i thought feet/ankles wernt legal anyway!

P.S. - by the way, has anyone been hurt by this? out of game physicaly? i think not!

Post by **GM-Taki** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:19 pm

Let's make this very clear: disagreements about proposed rules are welcome. Debate and multiple perspectives make the game better.

What is not welcome is any attempt to exclude or silence someone's opinion because it differs from your own. Keep it civil, we're all friends here.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:23 pm

you can't refuse to USE a rule. That's called cheating, and will get you ejected from the game.

Ankles, wrists, hands and neck/face all are all illegal targets.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:27 pm

the book says arm on machine gunning. That eans you have to move the enitie weapon, and your arm in a 45 degree motion.

wrist flick is machine gunning.

use the standard hit a different area of the body. no drum rolls.